Natalee Holloway - Case Discussion Extended Thread 15

"makes me very glad for our system . ."

And every aspect of our judicial system stems from the basic concept that every person is innocent until proven guilty. A juvenile suspect has even stronger protection under our laws, the least being their identity is immune from public scrutiny.

Phone calls:
http://members.aol.com/worldJOURNIER/NATALEE/NATALEEtimeline.html

5/30/2005
3:00 AM (?) = There may have been a phone call made from a landline or cellular phone in ARUBA, to Alabama. Apparently the phone call was recorded because a State Trooper listened to the call, and CHARLES CROES stated that it was replayed for him several times at 11:30 PM on 5-30 (supposedly the call was received/recorded by/on a cellular phone of an "Mountain Brook High School" male; possibly an "Mountain Brook High School" male who was on the ARUBA trip) Of this, supposed, phone call, DAN RIEHL wrote on 7-16.…

“Conversation and confusion continue around what, if any cell phone calls may have been placed that night, not simply between the suspects, but possibly between the suspects, and / or Natalee and other parties and trip attendees from Mountain Brook High School.

While I will continue to post what I have learned from speaking with reliable sources with a genuine or direct knowledge of events, I must also continue to caution readers that accumulating one larger more solid truth from reading the grains of sand that can be provided by a group of teenagers more caught up in this tragedy than observers must be read in context.

Clearly a combination of factors including - some individuals state of mind that night and after wards; an obvious over-indulgence in alcohol and possibly drugs, including Ecstasy by some in attendance at Carlos and Charlies; a necessarily secretive investigation and a desire by some to not discuss certain events that 1) may not sit well with family and friends and 2) may not always be remembered clearly due to the haze of partying, all combine to confound the unraveling of the mystery behind the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

As regards phone calls what I have learned from a reliable source is that at least two calls are said to have been placed by individuals on Aruba during the late night hours of the first evening of Natalee Holloway's disappearance. The calls were missed, either because phones were deactivated, or because of the poor performance of certain cell phones on the island of Aruba.

One male, said to be a close friend of Natalee Holloway discovered a message as he was riding home to Mountain Brook on a bus with other students and some chaperones. While I'm unable to verify the originating number of the call, I've been told it was not thought to be the cell phone of Natalee Holloway.

The message could not be clearly made out by ear and was characterized as being garbled "Aruban" voices. The call is said to have been originated in the "middle of the night" on the first evening of Natalee's disappearance.

A second "missed call" message is said to have been discovered by a female friend and possible vacation roommate of Natalee Holloway while flying home with the group from Aruba. The two groups of students mentioned were on separate flights.

As reported earlier, it is has been said that the remaining chaperone did use Natalee Holloway's cell phone the next day to reach her friends for more information that might have helped in finding Natalee early on in her disappearance. While that timing suggests the second call could have been placed by the chaperone, one source insists the missed call message was time stamped at 4 AM the previous night. That information has not been corroborated.

Attempts to clarify the circumstances surrounding Natalee's cell phone usage for the trip, specifically did she rent an alternate cell phone, as is common practice for some while visiting Aruba, were met with a no comment from one likely phone provider.

It is possible she had an additional phone resulting in some confusion as to where her cell phone was at any point in time. Also, the time stamp of the missed call from her phone could have been misinterpreted or reported incorrectly from the owner of the phone. It is assumed that authorities have verified those issues.

In the first instance above the young man notified a chaperone upon receiving the phone message and students quickly began to surmise that cell phones and any possible messages could become relevant to any potential investigation. I've been told that at that point most if not all phones were switched off and handed in, presumably to be handed over to investigating authorities.

I have no information as regards other possible phone messages left with anyone linked to this case.”

2:00-12:30 PM = Someone phones NATALEE’s brother in Alabama and tells him NATALEE is missing. Her brother phones NATALEE’s mother, BETH HOLLOWAY-TWITTY. BETH was on her way home from a family reunion in Arkansas with 2 friends (MARYLIN and LINDA; they had just filled-up their car with gasoline near Memphis, TN). BETH is sitting in the car back seat when she first receives a phone call on her cellular phone and is told that her daughter had not shown up in the “Holiday Inn” lobby where the students were told to gather before proceeding to the airport. BETH described how “within three seconds” she intuitively felt that NATALEE had been kidnapped. BETH based her mother’s intuition of knowing her daughter very well, and completely understanding that her daughter is “meticulous” and “very scheduled, organized and punctual” for pre-scheduled events. BETH said, “NATALEE has never been late for nothing. Nothing.” (NATALEE’s Aunt, LINDA ALLISON, and several others, have also detailed NATALEE being very organized, is very punctual, and regularly plans events ahead of time)

NOTE…. The very first bulletins that the TWITTY’s had printed up for family distributions all around ARUBA were printed in large red letters which read at the top “MISSING” (According to BETH on 7-22 to “FoxNews,” on 6-1 it was changed to “KIDNAPPED”)

BETH has described that she immediately felt that “NATALEE had been ripped from her life.”

At the point that BETH received the phone call, BETH and her friends were about 4.0 to 4.5 hours of normal driving speed from being home. (BETH had planned to be at the airport to help pickup the students at about 10 PM when they landed)

BETH is told that NATALEE did not make the plane departure and the chaperone who remained in ARUBA with several “Mountain Brook” students have not seen her anywhere around/in “Holiday Inn.”

BETH also learns that NATALEE was last seen with a DUTCH tourist boy staying at the “Holiday Inn” who was a tall, dark-haired, foreign exchange student boy outside of "Carlos 'n Charlies" at about 1:00 AM, and NATALEE was last seen getting into a small, silver or gray car with tinted windows and an oversized muffler.

After receiving the initial phone call, BETH and the 2 friends are upset and have to stop driving briefly. BETH then decides she will drive the car. Before realizing it she is driving at speeds of 110-120 MPH for the next 2.5 hours. While driving she calls 9-1-1 and tells them, “My daughter has been kidnapped in ARUBA. I need help.” She gets stopped by a highway patrolman state trooper and, obviously upset, simply explains to him “My daughter has been kidnapped in ARUBA. I need help.” She, supposedly, had the state trooper listen via her cell phone to a phone call recorded in Birmingham sometime in the last 24 hours. After listening to the recorded phone call, the trooper immediately contacts and notifies the UNITED STATES F.B.I. The state trooper then provides BETH and her friends an escort to Birmingham.

__:__ PM (?) = chaperone uses NATALEE’s cellular phone and tries to call or contacts her friends that are bookmarked into her cellular phone. When chaperone speaks with them he learns more details about the DUTCH foreign exchange student tourist boy and when NATALEE was last seen. The chaperone asks around the “Holiday Inn” and its “Excelsior Casino” about the DUTCH foreign exchange student tourist boy staying at the “Holiday Inn” and the chaperone is told to also speak to taxi drivers. When the taxi drivers are spoken to, one of the taxi drivers identifies Main Suspect J. SLOOT and Main Suspect J. SLOOT’s parents by name, and that Main Suspect J. SLOOT is known to frequent casinos, sometime with Current Suspect P. SLOOT.

__:__ PM (?) = A mutual friend between the TWITTY’s and CHARLES CROES then telephones CROES. CROES owns a cellular phone rental company in ARUBA. The friend contacts CROES hoping that a phone call that they thought to have been made from ARUBA to Alabama in the early morning hours of 5-30 was made with one of CROES cellular phones. (is this the supposed 3:00 AM phone call made from ARUBA to Alabama????) The friend tells CROES that the TWITTY’s are in ARUBA and CROES says he will meet them right away and help the TWITTY’s however he can. They agree to meet at a gas station. CROES takes a kid he knows with him and they depart for the gas station.

11:30 PM = The TWITTY’s, G. Ruffner PAGE Jr., JODY BEARMAN, the chaperone, the UNITED STATES D.E.A. agent, the UNITED STATES F.B.I. Agent, and the CROESES/TWITTY’s mutual friends meet CHARLES CROES and a kid who knows CROES at a “Valero” gas station near the airport. They all talk about what is known. BETH tells CROES that NATALEE was last seen with a boy portraying himself as a DUTCH foreign exchange student who was a tourist staying at the “Holiday Inn.“ BETH describes the boy as tall, dark-haired, and he was last seen with NATALEE outside of "Carlos 'n Charlies" at about 1:00 AM, and that NATALEE was last seen getting into a small, silver or gray car with tinted windows and an oversized muffler with the same boy. BETH tells CROES about a phone call received in the UNITED STATES, reportedly received in Alabama, and was recorded. (the 3:00 AM phone call, supposedly, from ARUBA to Alabama?) Apparently someone (BETH?, JUG?, and/or other?) has reason(s) to believe the phone call was made from a cellular phone. (who do they think made the call--they obviously know who received the call) (caller may have even stated it was from a cellular phone) BETH calls someone in the USA (where? Alabama?), and the recorded phone call is repeatedly played for CROES and he listens to it replayed several times. After listening to this phone call several times, they talk and immediately agree to go to the “Holiday Inn.”

Toespi, is it only when they are convicted that we learn their names? Or when the prosecutor decides to prosecute the individual as an adult?

I'm trying to remember, because it seems that the identities of certain underaged killers have been known . . . but my timing as to the revelation of their identities may be off . . .

8-22-05 Recap
http://members.aol.com/worldJOURNIER/NATALEE/NATALEEtimeline.html

On 8-22 BETH told “CNN” that an unnamed 17 year old ARUBAN woman is getting ready to go to the ARUBA prosecutor and tell about a Spring 2005 date-rape by Main Suspect J. SLOOT that also involved a date-rape drug. The woman has retained an unnamed, male, ARUBAN attorney according to ART WOOD. WOOD also reported that the woman has 2 ARUBAN friends who “had a similar experience” to the drugged date-rape by Main Suspect J. SLOOT. EDUARDO MANSUR was present when WOOD spoke with the 3 women today. WOOD also reported that other women may come forward.

On 8-22 BETH stated that last week they met with, and now they have hired ARUBAN attorney MARY LEJUEZ. LEJUEZ has experience as a Prosecutor, Chief Prosecutor, Deputy Attorney General of Aruba. And has represented Aruba in several United Nations General Assemblies, A.O.S Conferences and Money Laundry Conferences in U.S.A., Europe and Central America, is the Co-founder of a Legal Aid Center in Aruba, served on the board of several foundations and the National Council for Women, and consults for numerous prestigious international companies. Among other things BETH mentioned that LEJUEZ’s “fresh pair of eyes” may help them to “cover every base.”

On 8-22 BETH said that the 8-20, 30-minute meeting between BETH and ODUBER was arranged by BOB DILILLA. BETH said that ODUBER agreed that the 3 Suspect boys should not have been released from custody on 5-31. BETH told “FoxNews” “I wanted to make it perfectly clear to him that there is no way I will accept not having answers to where Natalee is. “I am not going to accept that, especially with how poorly the investigation was handled in the beginning. Incredible mistakes where made early on.” “We certainly would not want to prosecute the wrong individuals.” BETH emphasized that ODUBER and BRIESEN “are the only two officials who have stepped forward to me on the island” and she respects them for that. BETH stated again that she has had no communication from/with JANSSEN since the last time.

On 8-22 BETH said that GOLBA searched today in the dunes near the “California” lighthouse, and GOLBA has spoken about expanding towards the area between the lighthouse to the “Marriott Hotel” beach fishermens huts. BETH also said that there may be another ocean dive on 8-23.

On 8-22 BETH said that she had heard that the police have located the anonymous tipster/jogger, but she Is not certain he has been located.

On 8-22 CLIVE PAULA told “CNN” that the ocean floor area that he and 5 other divers voluntarily searched 8-21 was about 500’ by 200. Visibility was good but the divers found nothing significant. PAULA said there is a planned dive for 8-25, and hopefully at least one more after that.

On 8-22 LACLE happened to see, then speak with Current Suspect P. SLOOT at the office of Main Suspect J. SLOOT’s lawyer. The lawyer was hesitant about the two men being there and speaking, but Current Suspect P. SLOOT did speak with LACLE. LACLE would not comment about much of what they spoke about, and only said Current Suspect P. SLOOT “was not sweating” and appeared relaxed. He also said that ANITA is working again at the “Aruba International School.”

On 8-22 LACLE reported that the judge’s decision expected today about the appeal of defense lawyers to obtain more of the Main Suspect J. SLOOT interrogations videotapes, interrogations transcripts, and transcripts of police-tapped phone calls of Suspects was not made. LACLE said a decision could come 8-23, or next week. The defense lawyers have said that they are not receiving investigation information at all, or, not receiving it in a timely manner. LACLE said that the prosecution does have a right to withhold information if the information can harm an on-going investigation.

On 8-22 SCHIPPER said that there is, apparently, enough evidence that a judge sees in the prosecutor’s investigation file to hold Main Suspect J. SLOOT, but the defense seems to be saying they do not see enough to hold their Suspect, so, SCHIPPER speculates that there must be evidence that is being withheld.

On 8-22 LACLE reported that a polygraph expert is in ARUBA. The polygrapher’s name is JAMIE SKEETER and BETH has met him, but NATALEE‘s family did not hire him.

On 8-22 CATHY CADMUS (SHELBY CADMUS’ mother) told “FoxNews” that they believe Main Suspect J. SLOOT is completely innocent. (O’REILLY would not name CADMUS) CADMUS said that her family and the Suspects SLOOT’s family became friends around 2001, and during the month of August of 2002 Main Suspect J. SLOOT stayed with them in NJ and went to a camp with SHELBY. She described the two teens as becoming “very close,” and admitted that they allowed the 15 year olds to drink. CADMUS said the family’s are still friends and staying in close contact during the investigation.

On 8-22 it was reported that Current Suspect P. SLOOT has not hired RIZZO, but RIZZO did offer his services to them. RIZZO said he will be in ARUBA circa 9-4.

On 8-22 it was reported that the prison fight that Main Suspect J. SLOOT may have been a participant in circa 8-1 occurred during a prison soccer game, and was broken up by prison guards after the shorter combatant landed some good blows onto Main Suspect J. SLOOT.

On 8-22 “MSNBC” showed film of Current Suspect D. KALPOE returning to “Carlos ‘n Charlies” the evening of 8-19.

On 8-22 ZANDT told “MSNBC” that while he was in ARUBA last week he was told that multiple women “from multiple nationalities” are coming forward to ARUBAN police with allegations of predatory sexual advances on them by Main Suspect J. SLOOT.

I really do think hotlinking is kewl.

SM:

http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?t=1679&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=680

msmarple

Good Morning Monkeys. Overnight recap --

sleuth posted a recap of 100 pages up to 3:21 am 8/24 here: http://tinyurl.com/cvqhk This is an excellent place to start the daytime shift and includes good links to lots of information. Nice work sleuth.

Greta Tues 8/23 (full transcript not up yet)
Greta: Do you see any legal evidence of the crime of murder?

Chris Lejuez? & David Kock (Satish’s attorneys?) -- have not seen it up till now, not from the beginning up till now ... have never seen any forensic evidence showing that there has been any kind of violent criminal activity ...haven't seen any statements, haven't heard of any statements or any kind of forensic evidence ... don't know if they have any, believe they don't.

Catherine Crier Court TV Tues 8/23: Interviewed Jossy re. the 3 local Aruba girls. One, age 17, has come forward; two have not yet decided. Per Jossy, she will present charges at polis against JVDS for drugging and raping her, 2-3 weeks before Natalee disappeared. It sounds as though the 3 girls were together at C&Cs, approached by Joran, and “all 3 woke up in a strange place.” The Kalpoes not mentioned in this incident. Jossy has talked to the girl’s attorney, but not to the girl.

Re. PVDS – Crier said to Jossy:
Yesterday, TJ Ward said he believed there was evidence that tied PVDS not to a coverup post disposal of a body ... but ... to the disposal of a body itself.

Jossy: We have no information of the involvement of PVDS except being an accessory to the disposing of a body if there was a body.

He had no new details to support that – mentioned the discrepancies in times/places Joran was picked up and “other tidbits ... we are not privy to.”

Scarborough MSNBC Tues 8/23:
More about the women who have come forward on the record and made allegations against JVDS.

One an American went to the FBI and told them Joran was very persistent trying to get her in his car after a night of drinking at C&C. No crime, but he was persistent and she came forward.

According to a defense? attorney two young ladies went to prosecutors, told stories of a night of heavy drinking, followed by sex at his apartment. No crime (but notice that she says they went to Joran’s apartment).

The fourth teenager.is the.17 yr old Aruban who is alleging a crime. She went to her attorney who met with a private investigator and Beth. She claims that in the spring, she was drugged and had unwanted sexual contact with Joran. She says two other of her friends had similar allegations. (The other 2 are undecided as to whether to press charges.) She has not yet gone to police; the attorney says she plans to go to the prosecutor.

Side Note: Polygraph experts that were on the island, former FBI agents, gave the landfill witness a polygraph. He failed it! (Didn’t we hear that he had passed before the landfill dig began ???)

IAmTito on Board (or maybe not – admins researching to make sure this was Tito):
jogger still missing as of this afternoon..
dunes still being searched.. re. the landfill, trying to get in.. need manpower and equipment.. according to Fred Golba he needs 25 marines and 2 bulldozers.. and some other equipment.

Re. Deepak at C&Cs: the kalpoes are regulars and ALWAYS hang out together.. in fact they have been hitting the clubs every weekend.. and the cameras are following them..

(Tito was invited to ask questions of us ... and here’s what came back:)
QUESTION FOR THE MONKEES.. ..

HAVE YOU EVER THOUGHT OF BEING ON THE OTHER SIDE.. ??

ORRRR... EVEN WORSE.. IF NATALEE WAS A GOOD GIRL.. WHY WOULD SHE HOP INTO ANOTHER CAR.. WHILE HER FRIENDS TELL HER NOT TO.. DID SHE NOT ASK FOR IT? OOKEE.. NOW.. WARPING BACK TO REALITY.. OR TO WHAT WE KNOW..

Thus ensuring the usual discussion on morals, perceptions, indignation, etc. I predict that if the Natalee case goes to trial, this is a harbinger of what’s to come. Machismo lives ...

(Also - I think most, if not all, of Tito’s information comes from the Defense team.)

KKM post in response: (snipped, but ends with:) “This community supports Natalee's family no matter what.”

IWasTitoFirst also was on board with IAmTito, but no duel ensued.

resorttownmom posted a press release, released on 5/27 – p. 13 of thread 111.
“Local activists are not only gearing up for the upcoming September elections in Aruba, but one group in particular has stepped up its attacks on the MEP government, accusing the government of being in serious violation of international human rights laws and violating the basic human rights of its own citizenry.” Describes Alex Mathew as a survivor of the “Aruba prison abuse scandal.”

Other Real News:
The court ruled (for the 3rd time) that the FBI has access to case files. This decision from hearings last week on motions by Defense attorneys.

Fundraiser in Birmingham Thursday 8/26, B&A Warehouse, 6-8 pm (Courtney Cox involvement; Beth attending.)

Where’s bendex? On bumper cars ... at what could be the Kansas State Fair ... thanks Klassan for the diversion.

Onnimus created a new sticky thread in the Monkey Lounge for acronyms used on internet forums: http://tinyurl.com/bsumf

Nancy_Drew friendly reminder: Just use www.tinyurl.com to convert long links to short ones. (It’s free and easy; no computer smarts required. Because there are no spaces in a link, a very long one makes the page margin wider, which makes that page hard to read.)

sandraK posts this message board site as one where Charles Croes participates:
http://www.aruba.com/msgbrd/list.php?f=1&t=122685&a=1

arubagirl and NativeLingo posted a thread called “Announcement from NativeLingo and arubagirl” at http://www.scaredmonkeys.net/viewtopic.php?t=1665 . I wish there had been no need for this; but hope they will re-visit the thread to see how some of us feel about their contributions here.

Edited to apply bold makeup to Onnimus.

A preliminary hearing decides the adult/juvenile status of a suspect. The trial judge makes the decision based upon evidence which is presented by the prosecution and can be argued by the defense. Only then, can the identity of a juvenile be revealed.

Jeffrey Dahmer

another freak of nature who drugged his victims before sexual assault and murder.....

Ren, we must put on our Zarvuvian Thinking Helmets that we bought from No Surrender No Retreat, and get to work on this case. Image hosted by Photobucket.com

Hey Malichi,
As to the difference of frito and you being an investigative reporter? It is very simple delienation, frito has no integrity, he is a finessed prevaricator,and incapable of being unbiased in his work.

You on the other side of the coin, have integrity, are firm but fair, and would report/do what is morally & ethically right in performance of your duties.

So in reality, there is a big difference in the contrast of who will do what is wrong and who will do what is right. Frito(the easy left, wrong) Malichi(The hard, right)

Tell It Like It Is,
NSNR-DJ

http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2005/08/natalee_hollowa_56.html#comments

....Hi jolari.... That would be the timeline we are providing to help Natalee and her Loved Ones, which is always freely available for everyone here....http://members.aol.com/worldJOURNIER/NATALEE/NATALEEtimeline.html
Posted by: worldJOURNIER | Aug 24, 2005 2:04:01 AM

http://members.aol.com/worldJOURNIER/NATALEE/NATALEEpersons.html (which is also web-linked at the top of the timeline) ....each person individually listed contains related statements/information made by/about that person, and the info is listed for each person chronologically as it became initially publicly known, so, each persons statements, if they changed over time, can be compared (also, if a statement involved a specifically-dated claimed event, that event claim may be listed twice--once for the date/time it, supposedly, happened, and once for the date the person initially stated the claim)
Posted by: worldJOURNIER | Aug 24, 2005 2:22:00 AM

.... be prepared jolari.... the free timeline--or as Beth calls it, the "journal," is, currently, over 190 pages, and the persons list is over 460 pages.
Posted by: worldJOURNIER | Aug 24, 2005 2:25:29 AM
__________________

That counter-culture is what I want to know about. I think there is a good old boys' club on this happy little paradise, husbands to the stepford wives, who have their little thing on the side and it is kept very close to the vest, but like a fraternity, has become a legacy of lies and deception, lust and possibly other serious matters. Shango said Natalee was dealt two aces and that was the cue.
Posted by: proudredneck | Aug 24, 2005 2:52:50 AM

....proudred.... you are *right* *on* *target*.... as we keep saying--in many ways--- the onion IS peeling....
Posted by: worldJOURNIER | Aug 24, 2005 2:57:52 AM

.... proudred.... RENFRO, being a transplanted AMERICAN-now-ARUBAN many years ago, knows EXACTLY what is at stake long term.... all her **statements** are aimed at protecting ARUBA, deflecting ARUBA blame, and self-centerly protecting her little inconsequential domicile she has in ARUBA....we have received several emails from her
Posted by: worldJOURNIER | Aug 24, 2005 3:06:24 AM

Thank you very much, Toespi. It seemed to me that in the cases of Lionel Tate and Christopher Pittman, etc., we knew their identities early on—and that explains it.

Hell Yea,
We going to party like it's 1999 and then do a S/D mission in (Affluvia)Aruba. "Terminate with extreme prejudice."

These Colors Don't Run,
NSNR-POA

Thanks maggief . . . lots going on . . .

Thank you, my friend.

re Kalpoes, their momma, and their status as Surinamese citizens.

rumors of criminal history in Suriname have been discussed from time to time......I happened to find this on a US State Dept report (Released on May 17, 2004) in the Suriname section:

Trafficking in persons for sexual exploitation remains a serious concern in Suriname. The United States strongly and consistently urged government action against trafficking in persons and funded a two-year program to assist Suriname in that fight. In response to these efforts, the Government established an anti-trafficking commission (composed of various ministries and a local NGO, and headed by the Ministry of Justice and Police) to study the problem. The Government also launched a public education campaign against trafficking in persons using public service announcements obtained from the UN Office on Drugs and Crime. The Public Prosecutor's Office and the police established a registry of all brothels and their employees by nationality and established a "special victims' unit" and a telephone hotline in May to handle all cases from the commercial sex industry. In cooperation with police, they also worked to expand existing services for victims of domestic violence to meet the needs of victims of trafficking.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/shrd/2003/31024.htm

Vn, I had forgotten about the drugging, don't know how I could've. No I remember the one kid woke and ran but police believed it when Dahmer told them it was a lovers spat, because the kid was drugged.

Okay, now I've counted three Americans who had the drug/rape in Aruba and one Aruban (17-yr-old) who has come forward and who says has two friends who were drugged and raped, these latter three all claiming if was Joran.

But, obviously someone else on Aruba is doing this too. I am trying to understand why. To film the girls? To be more aggressive than a consenting girl would allow?

I'm going with both these scenarios. Either that or it's a sicko club among these boys, and I think that is a VERY REAL possibility. If so, I wish for total exposure.