Pope Set To Return To Traditional Liturgy

Web India ^ | June 20,2005 | Web India staff

[Lady In Blue]

Pope set to return to traditional liturgy:-

VATICAN CITY | June 19, 2005 5:11:27 AM IST

Pope Benedict XVI wants to restore the traditional ceremonial Mass in St. Peter's Basilica, with Latin instead of the vernacular and Gregorian chants.

Vatican expert Sandro Magister reported in his weekly newsletter Saturday that the pope is expected to replace Archbishop Pietro Marini, his predecessor Pope John Paul II's master of liturgical ceremonies.

Whoever follows Marini will have orders to restore the traditional style and choreography of papal ceremonies in St. Peter's.

Out will go the international Masses so dear to Pope John Paul II's heart, with such innovations as Latin American and African rhythms and even dancing, multi-lingual readings and children in national costumes bringing gifts to the altar.

Pope Benedict wants to return to the Sistine Chapel choirs singing Gregorian chant and the church music of such composers as Claudio Monteverdi from the 17th century. He also wants to revive the Latin Mass.

Archbishop Marini always planned the ceremonies with television in mind, Magister said, and that emphasis will remain. A decade ago the Vatican set up a system for transmitting papal ceremonies world wide via multiple satellites.

(UPI)

[te lucis]

I find it detestable

I'm quite sure you do.

[murphE]

Screw the commoners and peons.

Hardly. Unlike our Protestant friends who put so much emphasis on the ability to read the bible, the TLM is so rich in symbolism from the structure of the church building, the altar, the vestments, to each and every action of the priest offering the Holy Sacrifice, the gospel is understandable to the illiterate.

You just reject the Catholic understanding, and it is very hard to come away from a TLM with a Protestant understanding of the gospel.

[murphE]

Latin is a dead language, unlike modern language it does not evolve, therefor it is best for communicating eternal truths which do not evolve. Its use aids in preventing eternal truths from being perverted to conform the current whim of the day.

[rwfromkansas]

I will grant you the symbolism. I think that is a flaw in Protestant worship; too often we reject too much liturgy in my opinion and make things too simple, which destroys the mystery of worship and communion with God.

But, even so, the Christian should be able to understand EVERYTHING, every little minute detail, every little word said by the man leading the service.

Latin is not essential to the mass. You can say it in English and it would mean the same. I think the awe-inspiring atmosphere is enough to keep people centered. You don't need a language that could be a stumbling block.

[rwfromkansas]

Hmm....interesting perspective. You do have a good point there.

[Dominick]

Latin hold a special place in the Church, as it was the language that held together Christendom. I think a Mass in Latin is a beautiful thing, however, IMHO, I can't see Benedict bringing back Latin as the single language of the Mass.

Today as a practical matter, how many Priests know Latin? Do we ditch all those who prefer to celebrate Mass in vernacular? As a matter of Dogma, the Eastern rites were often celebrated in vernacular, and are no less valid.

Like I have said in this and other forums over and over again, out battle should be at the CCD door. Our Church is in need of real effort in Cathechesis. Pretending that all we need is a Tridentine Mass is amazingly short sighted. I still have people telling me fantastic reasons why they can't receive the Eucharist or go to Mass at all.

A simple short course in Catholicism would be the most effective of all the reforms.

In Europe, through the ages, symbolism taught our ancestors. They understood the teachings of the Church from the start, by the things they saw. The Statues, Glass, and Pageants of the church are gone. The teachings to back up those visual aids are missing now in our Churches. When you have a May Crowning, people don't understand it, because they were taught poorly in the first place.

Adults don't reschool themselves willingly. The Evangelicals have Sunday Class for the whole Congregation. We often have Bible Studies where nothing is taught, to those who already are Catechized in some manner. No, unless you motivate them correctly, nobody is going to fix the gaping wound in the soul that they have, and that they can't see.

Until the Church buys into the problems with the Adults from the 1960s where nothing was taught, or waits for them to die out, no reform will help.

[murphE]

Today as a practical matter, how many Priests know Latin?

I know a number of very devout and holy priests who do. In fact there's a growing number of priests who do. latin is still the official language of the church so, if a priest hopes to be a bishop or cardinal someday it is in his interest to learn it, to best fulfill his vocation

Do we ditch all those who prefer to celebrate Mass in vernacular?

Nope. Just let the pope reaffirm that all priests have the right to say the TLM without their bishop preventing them from doing so. Eventually the NO will dry up on its own. If fact, why not make the TLM the normative mass and let the NO be said with an indult?

[TaxachusettsMan]

Good thinking, tax-chick!

People have to READ the Magister article carefully.

People then have to realize that their latest hated scape-goat Marini is the one who planned and prepared the Gregorian-chant / polyphony -filled liturgies surrounding the death of Pope John Paul II and the beginning of the Conclave, having presented those rites to the late Pontiff in 1998 (i.e., they were not "ordered" by Cardinal Ratzinger's office).

He also did the research that was preliminary to the publication of Order for the Beginning of the Petrine Ministry of the Bishop of Rome, which rites we saw carried out majestically and magnificently on global television on the day of our new Holy Father's installation. That Order was the FIRST LITURGICAL BOOK APPROVED BY POPE BENEDICT XVI - and it was all prepared by Marini and presented to Pope Benedict the day after his election.

These books are available for purchase (now) by the general public at www.paxbook.com

They are researched in a scholarly and Traditional way and beautifully printed and bound as befits the liturgical books of the Roman Rite . . . and all directed by that radical lib Marini!

But don't expect anyone on here from the SSPX side (and sympathizers) to even READ such argumentation . . . let alone attempt to reason the thing through.

It's enough for them to have a scapegoat.

And you know the old story, to paraphrase:

"For those who are loyal Roman Catholics, no changes are necessary; for those who are not, no changes will ever be enough."

[american colleen]

That's the whole reason for the Latin in the Mass - since the language is a 'dead' language, the words do not change meaning unlike spoken languages - for example, think of when we say 'gay' and what it means today as opposed to what it meant 20 or 30 years ago. Even a novel written only 30 or 40 years ago seems dated by the language changes that have taken place.

BTW, I am a commoner and a peon - no formal education and I can sit through a Mass said in Latin (either the 'old' Mass or the 'new Mass') and I know what is being prayed. Most parishes that use Latin also provide little missals with the Latin on one side and the English on the other side for those who would like to use it. The homily (reflection on the Gospel) is always in the vernacular. Sometimes, when I have been in a foreign speaking country, I wished the homily was in Latin so I would at least get the gist of what the priest was saying. For example, last year I was in Quebec and the Mass and the homily was in French and I was completely lost.

[RobbyS]

It is a signal that a turn is about the be made.

[Rutles4Ever]

Wow. I know we're in the age of high-speed technology, but give the guy some time to work on it. He's already started purging these liberal voices in a very public manner. How can you possibly pass judgment on his his reign at this point?

[TaxachusettsMan]

Lots of truth in your post, MurphE . . . here's a problem though, and I say this as someone who has had to teach Latin, informally, to a number of young guys who want to be able to pray in Latin . . .

The crisis in the liturgical language of the Church is tied into the crisis in the ENGLISH language in our schools.

What I mean is, when we went to school (yes, I know, when dinosaurs roamed the earth and nuns wore the habit), we were taught what I, as an educator, consider to be the most basic foundation for learning Latin (or any other language beside one's first language): how to diagram sentences.

By which I mean not only how to diagram sentences but, necessarily, the grammatical rules that such diagrams demand, pre-suppose, and in their own way teach!

To move from six years of diagram work with English into 9th grade Latin was a breeze for me - and for so many others in my age group.

Some of these poor young guys who want to be able to say Mass in Latin BARELY KNOW ENGLISH.

But be that as it may, what a tragedy that they could go through the entire pre-ordination theology graduate school and never have to take even a basic course in Latin (oh, but make sure they get Biblical Greek and Hebrew)!

Where to begin?

[Tax-chick]

Thanks for the comments. We have no TV reception, so I didn't see any of the funeral/conclave/installation liturgies. I hope to get a DVD, eventually.

My bottom line is that Pope Benedict will do whatever he decides is right, and then I will react to it (if necessary). Predictions are simply a way of (1) pushing an agenda, and (2) getting attention.

[Pio]

You're very confused.

Homilies are not given in Latin.

When we cheer Latin we are talking about the prayers which have been intentionally mistranslated so as to give them a different meaning.

If you attend a Tridentine Mass you'll notice that the readings and homily are in the vernacular. Similarly, in the Novus Ordo, Latin will add great unity especially in America where so many languages are spoken in the same city.

I more strongly suspect that you know all this and are intentionally trying to confuse the issue.

[Rutles4Ever]

There would have to be a significant weaning process to re-instate a Latin-only liturgy.

My guess is that the vernacular horse is out of the barn and won't be returned. However, I find it entirely plausible that Latin liturgy will be (and can be) offered once-a-Sunday on a regular basis. If demand for Latin is strong enough, then it would follow that one day there may only be a once-a-Sunday mass in the vernacular.

[Pio]

"I suppose I'm used to a Pope who gets out there and lays it on the line."

We have had priests raping children en masse here in Boston, with Bishops transferring the rapists around. The Boston Cardinal got promoted! Where did JPII lay anything on the line?

Children are now safer with JPII in the ground.

[RedBeaconNY]

You know, I'm not Catholic, but your Pope is an awesome guy.

[N. Theknow]

Claudio Monteverdi

Claude Greenmountain ping.

[Pio]

You're unfamiliar with the Mass. The readings are read in the vernacular in the Tidentine Mass. What we're jumping for joy about is the prayers. Also, the homiles are also said in the vernacular...so even a Tridentine Mass in Boston could, say, have the readings and homily in Spanish or English or French for that matter.

Similarly, the Novus Ordo would just do some of the prayers in Latin and the Our Father could be chanted in unison in Latin...it's very beautiful especially when you know there are Spanish speakers in the congregation.

The responses (short phrases spoken aloud) could be in Latin and easily learned by anyone with an IQ over 25.

Watch EWTN for LAtin in action at a Catholic (Novus Ordo) Mass.

[WildRose]

Does this mean that the Vatican will issue directives for all the countries around the world to use the Latin in Mass as well? I see a difference betweeen using the liturgical celebrations at St. Peter's in Rome as a good example, and demanding that it be done that way everywhere. Just wondering.....