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What Must I Do To Be Saved?
Worthynews.com ^ | July 11th, 1875 | D. L. Moody

Posted on 01/21/2005 6:34:28 AM PST by P-Marlowe

Jesus Christ is calling you ...

What Must I Do To Be Saved?

Dwight Lyman Moody's Last Sermon in London. Preached in Camberwell Hall, Sunday Evening, July 11th, 1875.

Suppose you do not want to hear a sermon (on this last night) so much as you want to know how to be saved. I want, if I can, to answer that question, "What must I do to be saved?" There is no question that can come before us in this world that is so important; and I think that there is not a man in this audience to-night who does not feel interested in it.

I heard a man, when he was going out the other night, saying: "I do not believe in sudden conversion. I do not believe what the preacher said to-night, that a man could come in here a sinner, and go out a Christian." Now, I want to say that I do not believe in any other conversion. I do not believe that there ever has been a conversion in the world that was not instantaneous, and I want you to mark this: not but what many cannot tell the day nor the hour when they were converted. I will admit that: they may not know the time; but that does not change the great fact that there was a time when they passed from death unto life; that there was a time when they were born [ABCOG: begotten] into the kingdom of God. There must have been a minute when their name was written in the Book of Life. There must have been a time when they were ere lost, and a time when they were saved; but we may not be conscious when the change takes place. I believe the conversion of some is like the rising of the sun, and of others like the flashing of a meteor. But both are instantaneous, really, in the sight of God. There must be a time when life begins to rise; when the dead soul begins to live.

Now, this evening I want to take up some of the Bible illustrations. In the first place, there is the ark. There was a minute when Noah was outside of the ark, and another minute when he was inside. And, bear in mind, it was the ark that saved Noah: it was not his righteousness; it was not his feelings; it was not his tears; it was not his prayers. It was the ark that saved him. If he had tried to make an ark of his feelings, or of his prayers, or of his life, he would have been swept away: he would have been drowned with the rest. But, you see, it was the ark that saved him.

When I was in Manchester, I went into the gallery one Sunday night to have a talk with a few inquirers; and while I was talking, a business man came in, and took his seat on the outskirts of the audience. I think, at first, he had come merely to criticize, and that he was a little skeptical. At last I saw he was in tears. I turned to him, and said, " My friend, what is your difficulty?" "Well," he said, "Mr. Moody, the fact is, I cannot tell." I said, "Do you believe you are a sinner?" He said, "Yes; I know that." I said, "Christ is able to save you"; and I used one illustration after another, but he did not see it. At last I thought of the ark, and I said: "Was it Noah's feelings that saved him? Was it Noah's righteousness that saved him, or was it the ark?" "I see it, now," said he; "I see it." He got up and shook hands with me, and said: "Good-night: I must go. I have to go away by the train to-night; but I was determined to be saved before I went. I see it now."

A few days after, he came and touched me on the shoulder, and said, "Do you know me? " I said, "I know your face, but do not remember where I have seen you." He said, "Do you not remember the illustration of the ark? I said, " Yes." "It has been all light ever since," said he. "I understand it now. Christ is the Ark; He saves me; and I must get inside Him." When I went down to Manchester again, and talked to the young friends there, I found he was the brightest light among them.

Let me take another illustration. There was the blood in Goshen. God says, "When I see the blood I will pass over you." Now He does not say, "When I see Moses' feelings, or the feelings of the people, I will pass over you"; or, "When I see you praying and weeping, I will pass over you"; but, "When I see the blood I will pass over you." It was the blood that saved them, not their righteousness. And a little child by that blood in Goshen was just as safe as Moses or Aaron or Joshua or Caleb. It was the blood that saved them. Look! there is the Jew taking the hyssop. He dips it in the blood, and strikes it on the doorpost. One minute it is not there: the next it is there. The moment the blood is there they are saved. God says, "When I see the blood I will pass over you." Some people say, "If I were only as good as that minister I should feel so safe" or, "If I were only as good as that mother in Israel who has been praying fifty years for the poor and unfortunate, should I not feel very safe? " My friends, if you are behind the blood, you are as safe as any man or woman who has been praying for fifty years. It is not their righteousness and good works that are going to save them. They never saved any one. God says, "When I see the blood I will pass over you." [ABCOG: Moody understands "pass over" to mean "bypass". It can also mean "hover over to protect"] And when I am sheltered behind the blood, then I am saved; and if I am not sheltered behind the blood, I am not saved. That was instantaneous, was not it? God says, "When I see the blood, it shall be a token, and I will not enter." Death came down and passed over Egypt; and where the blood was on the doorpost he passed by; but where the blood could not be found, in he went and took the victim away. The great palaces could not keep out death; wealth and position could not keep out death. He went and took the Crown Prince of Egypt; he took the richest and the poorest, the highest and the lowest. Death makes no distinction, except a man is behind the blood.

My friends, be wise to-night, and get behind the blood. The blood has been shed. The blood is on the mercy-seat; and while it is there you can be saved. God is imputing to His Son your trespasses and sins. He says, "I will look at the blood on the mercy-seat." Press in, my friends; make haste and get in tonight; for the Master of the house will rise up by-and-by and shut to the door, and then there will be no hope.

Take another case. When Israel went over Jordan, God told Joshua to have six cities of refuge; three on each side of Jordan. They were to be built on a hill, where they could be seen at a great distance, and the gates were to be kept open day and night. All obstacles were to be kept out of the way, the highway was to be kept in repair, the bridges and everything in good condition, so that nothing should hinder a poor man flying to the city of refuge. If a man killed another in those days, it was considered a great disgrace if the nearest relative did not take vengeance. "An eye for an eye, and a booth for a tooth." If a man killed another, the next kinsman was bound to put him to death. But if he could escape to a city of refuge he was tried, and if it was found he had not intentionally killed the man, he might live.

Now for my illustration. Suppose I have killed a man. I am out away in the woods working, and my axe slips out of my hand, and kills the man working with me. I know that his kinsman, his brother, is not far away. The news will soon reach him that I have killed his brother. What shall I do? I start for the city of refuge, over there away on the hill, ten miles off. I run - and we are told that in those days there used to be signposts with the word " Refuge," written in great red letters, so that a man might read as he ran; he need not stop. I have been told that there was a finger pointing towards the city, and a man who could not read might see the hand. A man does not have to learn to read before he can be saved. I see that hand; it is pointing to the city of refuge. The gate is wide open, but it is ten miles away. I leap over the highway. I do not look behind, to the right hand or to the left. I do not listen to this man or to that man, but, like John Bunyan, I put my fingers in my ears. The avenger has drawn his sword, and is on my track. I leap over into the highway; and, pretty soon, I can hear him behind me, Away I go, over that bridge, across that stream, up that mountain, along that valley, - but I can hear him coming nearer and nearer. There is the watchman; I can see him on the wall of the city. He gives notice to the inhabitants that a refugee is coming. I see the citizens on the wall of the city watching, and when I get near I hear them calling, "Run, run! Escape, escape! He is very near you! Run! escape!" I press on; leap through the gate of the city; and at last I am safe. One minute I am outside, and the next I am inside. One minute I am exposed to that sword; it may come down upon me at any minute: the next minute I am safe. Do I feel any difference? I feel I am behind the walls: that is the difference. It is a fact. There I am. The avenger can come up to the gates of the city, but he cannot come in. He cannot lay his sword upon me. The law of the land shields me now. I am under the protection of that city; I have saved my life; but I had no time for lingering.

A great many of you are trying to get into the city of refuge, and there are enemies trying to stop you, But do not listen to them. Your friends tell you to escape. Make haste! Delay not for a single moment!

In our country, before the war, when we had slavery, the slaves used to keep their eye on the north star. If a slave escaped to the Northern States, his old master could come and take him back into slavery. But there was another flag on American soil, and if they could only get under that flag they were for ever free. It is called the Union Jack. If they could only get as far north as Canada they were free; therefore they kept looking towards the north star. But they knew if they only got into the Northern States, there might be some one ready to take them back. So it is with every poor sinner who wants to come to Christ. Many men do all they can to hinder him; others will cheer him on. Let us help every man towards the north star. A man has escaped: perhaps he swims across the Mississippi river, or crosses the Ohio river in a little canoe. The master hears of it, and he takes his hounds and sets them on his track, and begins to hunt him down. The slave hears the hounds; and he knows that his master is coming to take him back to slavery. The line is a mile or two away. He escapes as fast as he can. He runs with all his might for the frontier, over hedges and ditches and rivers; away he goes for Canada. By-and-by he comes in sight of Canada. He can see that flag floating in front of him; and he knows that if he can only cross the line before his master and the hounds overtake him, he will be free for ever.

How the poor black man runs! leaping and bounding along; and at last, with one bound, he goes over the line. He is free! One minute he is a slave; the next minute he is a free man, under the flag of Queen Victoria, the British flag! (cheers [ABCOG: by British crowd]) - don't cheer, my friends, but come to Christ - and your laws say that no man under that flag shall be a slave. One minute he is a slave; the next minute he is a free man. One minute it is possible for his old master to drag him back; the next minute he shouts, "Free!"

If Christ tells us that we are free, we are free. My friends, Christ is calling to-night. Get out of the devil's territory as quick as you can. No slave in the Southern States had so hard a master as yours, nor so mean a master as Satan. Take my advice tonight, and escape for the liberty of your soul.

I can imagine some of you saying "I do not see how a man is really going to be converted all at once." Let me give you another illustration. Look down there. There are two soldiers. Now, if you bring those soldiers up to this platform, and ask them how they became soldiers, they will tell you this - that one moment they were citizens, and the next minute soldiers. What was it that made them soldiers? It was when they took the Queen's shilling. The moment they received that shilling they ceased to be citizens, and they became soldiers. Before they received that shilling they could go where they pleased; the next minute they came under the government and under the regulations of the army, and they must go where Queen Victoria sends them. They did not have to wait for the uniform. The minute they received the shilling they became soldiers. What made them soldiers? Receiving the shilling. What makes a man a Christian? Receiving Christ. "He came unto His own, and His own received Him not: but as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God."

Now, the gift of God is eternal life. Who will have the gift to-night? When I was down in Manchester I asked that question, and a man shouted in the meeting, "I will! " Who will have it now? Is not there some man here in London, as there was in Manchester, who will say that he will have the gift? Is it not a wonder to have to plead with so many to take the gift? "The wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life." Who will have the gift now? (Many responses of "I will"; "I will.")

I can imagine one man down there who says "How about repentance? How about getting into the ark or the city of refuge before repentance?" My friend, let me ask you what is repentance? It is right-about-face! I think these soldiers understand that expression. Some one has said that every one is born with his back to God, and that conversion turns him right round. If you want to be converted, and want to repent, I will tell you what you should do. Just get out of Satan's service, and get into the Lord's. Leave your old friends, and unite yourself with God's people.

In a few days, if nothing happens, I expect to go to Liverpool. If, when I am in the train, my friend Mr. Shipton says, "Moody, you are going in the wrong train, - that train is going to Edinburgh" - I should say, "Mr. Shipton, you have made a great mistake; somebody told me the train was going to Liverpool. You are wrong, Mr. Shipton; I am sure you are wrong." Then Mr. Shipton would say, "Moody, I have lived here forty years, and I know all about the trains. He must have been very ignorant or very vicious who told you that train goes to Liverpool." Mr. Shipton at last convinces me, and I get out of that train and get into the one going to Liverpool.

Repentance is getting out of one train and getting into the other. You are in the wrong train; you are in the broad path that takes you down to the pit of hell. Get out of it to-night. Right-about-face! Who will turn his feet towards God? "Turn ye, for why will ye die?" In the Old Testament the word is "turn." In the New Testament the word is "repent." "Turn ye, for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" God does not want any man in this audience to perish, but He wants all to be saved. You can be saved now if you will.

There is another illustration I wish I had time to dwell upon and that is about looking. There is that serpent in the wilderness. "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man also be lifted up, that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Look here! Just give me your attention for a few minutes. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." How long does it take a man to believe? Or, if you will, how long does it take a man to look? Some people say they believe in educating people to be Christians. How long do you educate children to look? You hear the mother say, "Look," and the little child looks. It does not take a child three months to learn to look. Look and live! You need not go to college to learn how to look. There is not a child here but knows how to look. Christ says, "Look unto me; for I am [ABCOG: the way to] God, and there is none else."

There is the brazen serpent on the pole. God says to the children of Israel, who are dying of the bite of the fiery serpents - "Look, and live!"

Now, there is nothing in looking at a piece of brass which can cure the bite of a serpent. It is God who cures it, and the looking is the condition. It is obedience; and that is what God will have.

One moment the poor sufferer is dying; the next there comes a thrill of life through his veins, and he lives: he is well. My friends, look to Christ, and not to yourselves. That is what is the matter with a great many sinners; instead of looking to Christ, they are looking at the bite.

It is not looking to the wound; it is looking to the remedy. Christ is the remedy of sin. What you want is to look from the wound to the remedy - to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. Who will look tonight, and live? Turn your eye to Calvary; believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.


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KEYWORDS: 230; dwightlmoody; moody; salvation; transcript
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To: xzins
"Perhaps I wrote it poorly. If you will, please read it again."

Yes, you did write it poorly as it was addressed to only me. The way I read the following comment was:

"If you [Harley] come to the above conclusion [saved by grace], then you're [Harley are] not "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" are you [Harley]?"

I should have read the "you" in the more generic sense but since it was only address to me I took it more personally. It's good to have the clarification.

Fortunately I did not rent my shirt. :O)

761 posted on 01/26/2005 11:52:05 PM PST by HarleyD (aka Codename: Heretic Harley-Ignorant Savage)
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To: fortheDeclaration; HarleyD; thePilgrim; GLENNS
To get to heaven you need more then to have your sins forgiven, you need God's righteousness, which only comes by accepting the free gift of salvation. (Jn.1:12

And as you told us yesterday with more forthrightness than your arminian compadres, you are smarter than the average bear, and thus you believe and have faith in Jesus Christ.

The Reformed disagree with this completely and profoundly as it is 180 degrees from Scripture, and leads one straight back to Rome (synergism over monergism.) But at least you are honest enough to say it out loud.

762 posted on 01/27/2005 12:12:27 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: P-Marlowe

I'm coming home, I've done my time....


763 posted on 01/27/2005 12:13:27 AM PST by HitmanLV (HitmanNY has a brand new Blog!! Please Visit! - http://www.goldust.com/weblog -)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
And as you told us yesterday with more forthrightness than your arminian compadres, you are smarter than the average bear, and thus you believe and have faith in Jesus Christ. The Reformed disagree with this completely and profoundly as it is 180 degrees from Scripture, and leads one straight back to Rome (synergism over monergism.) But at least you are honest enough to say it out loud.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom

So, when you obey God, is it because you are 'smarter' then a Christian that doesn't?

So, why do some Christians choose to grow and others do not?

Why are you a Calvinist and others not?

Must be something in you that led you to believe certain things which others have rejected.

I know,you do not want to think of those things-they just happen!

764 posted on 01/27/2005 12:48:51 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration
Must be something in you that led you to believe certain things which others have rejected. I know, you do not want to think of those things-they just happen!

It's the Holy Ghost causing me (and you) to "think of those things."

I know you don't want to hear that, but it's true.

By the grace of God.

Christ's sacrifice is complete. No sacraments, water baptisms, confessions, tithing, secret handshakes, absolutions or acceptance cards necessary to finish the completed atonement. It is finished. The elect, ordained by God from before the foundation of the world from all nations and races and ages, have been saved. He is gathering them up and He will not lose any whom the Father has given Him.

Thank you, God, for this unmerited, unearned and most merciful gift of grace through the death and resurrection of your Son.

765 posted on 01/27/2005 1:01:46 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
It's the Holy Ghost causing me (and you) to "think of those things." I know you don't want to hear that, but it's true.

Now, who is kidding whom?

You have to yield to the Holy Spirit or resist Him.

So why do you yield sometimes and sometimes not?

I know you do not want to admit that you have choices to make.

Or, God is responsible for your sins (since He is willing them)

Or, you don't sin.

Which is it?

766 posted on 01/27/2005 1:24:16 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration; Dr. Eckleburg
"You have to yield to the Holy Spirit or resist Him....So why do you yield sometimes and sometimes not?"

Don't you think God knows when you will yield to Him and when you won't? Do you think that your choices surprise, startle, or disappoint God? How much do you think God knows about you and how you will respond to circumstances around you?

You will ALWAYS yeild to God. Jonah found that out. Ahab found it out. Pharaoh found it out.

There seems to be a "limiting" factor that God is only some kind of "still small voice" that tells us what we should do but we have a right to tell that voice to be quiet. A rather anemic view of God IMHO and not at all the Biblical version of God.

767 posted on 01/27/2005 4:34:45 AM PST by HarleyD (aka Codename: Heretic Harley-Ignorant Savage)
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To: HarleyD
Don't you think God knows when you will yield to Him and when you won't? Do you think that your choices surprise, startle, or disappoint God? How much do you think God knows about you and how you will respond to circumstances around you? You will ALWAYS yeild to God. Jonah found that out. Ahab found it out. Pharaoh found it out.

The Jews did not yield (Acts7)

You and I do not yield when we sin or does God really want us to sin?

There seems to be a "limiting" factor that God is only some kind of "still small voice" that tells us what we should do but we have a right to tell that voice to be quiet. A rather anemic view of God IMHO and not at all the Biblical version of God.

No, God indwells us and there is a battle over our will (Rom.7)

Hence the commands not to grieve or quench the Holy Spirit.

But ofcourse if man is just going along for the ride, God is also doing the sinning, willing it to be so.

And you guys say you do not think God is the author of sin.

You make God responsible for your daily sins!

768 posted on 01/27/2005 5:06:01 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: P-Marlowe; fortheDeclaration
Kinda reminds me of an old surf wagon I used to know.


769 posted on 01/27/2005 5:20:35 AM PST by Revelation 911
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To: fortheDeclaration
"You and I do not yield when we sin or does God really want us to sin?”

You may THINK you don’t yield but this is not what scripture tells us. Jonah ran away from what God told him to do but God brought him right back. You may sin (and not yielding to God is sin) but He will bring you back to do His will.

"For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, and He scourges every son whom He receives.” It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?” Heb 12:6-7

"No, God indwells us and there is a battle over our will (Rom.7)”

The historical view of Romans 7 was never this Joseph Arminius’ interpretation. The historical (and proper) view of Romans 7 is talking about the old nature before we come to know Christ. God does not battle Satan. Satan has to ask His permission (see Job). What makes you think He battles with our “will”? You give us far too much credit. When we accept Christ we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit and become new creatures.

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.” 2 Cor 5:17

That doesn’t mean we won’t sin. It only means that God will correct us and bring us back on course to do His purpose.

770 posted on 01/27/2005 5:48:35 AM PST by HarleyD (aka Codename: Heretic Harley-Ignorant Savage)
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To: HarleyD

" My belief is that you're saved the moment God wishes to give you a new heart."

That may be your belief, but it is not what the Bible clearly states. Yes, the blood of Christ removes sins, but the key is this: At what point do we come in contact with the Blood?

According to the Word of God, baptism is for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38) and washes away sins (Acts 22:16). In Matthew 26:28, Christ uses the exact same language that is used in Acts 2:38 to say that He shed His blood for the remission of sins. There is an obvious connection here. By submitting ourselves to His will and being baptized, the precious blood of Christ is applied.

I believe the hardest part for you in regards to baptism is that you think it negates God's grace somehow to believe that baptism is necessary to accept God's gift of salvation. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

God was under no obligation to offer us a way to be saved, but He has done so because of His unconditional love for us. That is what makes the gift free. We did not warrant the gift, but it was given anyway. The fact that we must obey Him to accept this wonderful gift in no way changes that.

God has always commanded obedience from His followers, including the Nation of Israel under the Mosaic Law. Please consider the following verses:

Hebrews 5:8-9 -
8 though He was a Son, [yet] He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

As you can see, Christ is the author of our salvation, but only to those who obey Him. The only way to obey Him is to keep his commandments (Luke 6:46).

God bless.


771 posted on 01/27/2005 6:12:12 AM PST by jkl1122
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
And as you told us yesterday with more forthrightness than your arminian compadres, you are smarter than the average bear, and thus you believe and have faith in Jesus Christ.

That is a hilarous oxymoron but it is doubly sad considering the extent of the warmed over slop that is taught in the baptistic arminian culture. The sad fact is that these arminians are enslaved in enlightment philosophy and most don't even realize the catagory they are bound in. Saying that the Word of God is only the words written in the Bible is an example of how the arminian is utterly bound by analytic philosophy dismissing any general revelation and contextual historical revelations, as if God Himself is limited by language. Blasphmemy! That is why their little dispensational god is so mutable. Everytime one of his syllogisms falls apart he needs to reconstruct a new one.

I've become convinced that the only way to reach our enslaved brothers and sisters is by employing the same methodology as God Himself condescended to teach His people, that is through stories. The veracity of stories is arrived at differently than enlightment analytic philosophy. In the Arminian Cartesian model it is about "I" using my senses to arrive at the truth. As we know this is antithethical to the story/narrative of the Bible. Perhaps we have too have been enslaved to a degree and need to repent and help our brothers and sisters out of their enslavement.

772 posted on 01/27/2005 7:20:46 AM PST by GLENNS
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To: P-Marlowe

bump for my files


773 posted on 01/27/2005 7:24:22 AM PST by RightField (The older you get ... the older "old" is !)
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To: jkl1122
"The fact that we must obey Him to accept this wonderful gift in no way changes that."

This is actually where we disagree. If we have to do something to accept "the gift" it's earned. We did something (obey, be baptized) for "the gift". It ceases to be a gift.

The verses you cited can be easily explain that baptism is one step in the regeneration process. Hence the writers were only discussing just step "X" of the regeneration process. We obey our Lord Jesus in baptism because He has changed us to want to do so. And, yes, this is what the Bible clearly states as I pointed out with the case of Cornelius which you have not yet explain. While its important to review the doctrinal text, God also gives us Biblical examples to ensure our accurate interpretation. Most people fail to examine these stories closely and match them to other text to understand the workings of God.

I don't wish to sound mean spirited; I'm really a swell guy. But given my past experiences with people who hold this view, I doubt if we're going to change each other's minds on this.

774 posted on 01/27/2005 7:30:59 AM PST by HarleyD (aka Codename: Heretic Harley-Ignorant Savage)
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To: GLENNS; Dr. Eckleburg
"I've become convinced that the only way to reach our enslaved brothers and sisters is...through stories."

LOL. No matter how many times I've discuss Biblical examples (Jonah, Ester, Cornelius, etc.) they seem to be ignored.

I've always had trouble reconciling the Arminian "God of love" with one who would command the slaughter of civilizations. I understand it from a Calvinist "God is sovereign" perspective. Until people can grasp the sovereignty part these examples will only remain "stories".

775 posted on 01/27/2005 7:45:10 AM PST by HarleyD (aka Codename: Heretic Harley-Ignorant Savage)
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To: HarleyD

I have given an explanation to the case of Cornelius, you have just yet to comment on my explanation. I have shown, in the Bible, that baptism is for the remission of sins. Until you can prove to me that we are saved before our sins are remitted, then you can't prove that salvation happens before baptism. Period.


776 posted on 01/27/2005 7:54:59 AM PST by jkl1122
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To: HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg

Yea, I know.

The inferences derived from these stories are clear, yet...

As the Isrealites proved, just being part of a covenant community doesn't ensure repentance.

We need to pray for an outpouring of the Holy Spirit to clear fogged minds.


777 posted on 01/27/2005 7:55:54 AM PST by GLENNS
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To: jkl1122
Sorry, I looked back through the posts and found your comment below:

"Cornelius received the Holy Spirit as a sign to the Jewish Christians that Gentiles could be saved as well. There are only two instances where the Holy Spirit manifests itself as it did with Cornelius, the other being when the apostles spoke at Pentecost."

You might include John the Baptist and Jeremiah to this list but, of course, they were under the "old covenant".

This is a typical Arminian construct. God works differently in the life of one but He doesn't work that way for the rest of us. I'm sorry but I reject this type of argument. People use it in all sorts of different ways just to "prove" their case. There's always an exception and that exception list grows awfully long and varies depending on who you talk to.

God works exactly the same way in everyone's life. God show no partiality. Period.

778 posted on 01/27/2005 8:14:40 AM PST by HarleyD (aka Codename: Heretic Harley-Ignorant Savage)
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To: fortheDeclaration; OrthodoxPresbyterian; P-Marlowe; Corin Stormhands; RnMomof7; Gamecock; ...

***The money isn't in your account, it is a account that you have been given access to, but you have to claim it.***

This is not what you said. You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. Here is EXACTLY what you said when you FIRST gave your analogy: "I put a million dollars in your bank account."

I think you need to go back and figure out what kind of analogy you want to present before you talk yourself into a corner and need to start contradicting yourself in order to try and make your analogy make sense.

I'm just going on EXACTLY what you told me in the beginning. You told me that the million dollars was in MY bank account. Now, you tell me that the million isn't in my account.

When you figure out exactly what it is that YOU believe, you be sure and get back to me. Ok!

***Now, that is quite amazing. You know its there-how?***

Well, I think that is self evidently obvious. You know that your debt has been paid because you don't get sent to debtors prison. This analogy isn't hard, ftd.

***You have to believe to get saved, believe in the Person and Work of the saviour.***

This is exactly the backward way that Arminians read such passages as John 10:26. In point of fact, people don't believe BECAUSE they are not sheep, exactly and explicitly as such passages as John 10:26 say.

Let's look at the modified analogy again:

"Let us say that you owe a million dollars and that if you don't pay, you will be cast into debtors prison until the full debt is paid. Some man comes along and pays your debt. There is not any requirement for you to accept this gift; it was legally applied to your account for your benefit. All you must do is enjoy the gift. Now, that makes more sense than this bank job weirdness."

First off, I'll point out that in your silly analogy you did EXACTLY say that "I put a million dollars in your bank account." I correctly pointed out that if the million is in MY account, then there is nothing I need do further. Of course, realizing that you had talked yourself into a corner, you've tried to change your analogy. Well, I've modified it for you to make it Biblical so there is no need now for you to contradict yourself. Simply admit that you had it all wrong and embrace something better. Just look....

Luke 7:41 "There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?"

Now, the Lord Jesus used this analogy of a freely forgiven debt more than once. And, not once in any of the times did the Lord use the analogy was there an element of the debtor having to accept the gift of the payment in order for it to actually apply to him. It is just not to be found. IOW, you are just making up stuff which has no Biblical relevance. To be honest, it is in effect adding an unBiblical requirement to the gospel.

Now, I'm sure you will note if you check The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant in Matthew that the wicked servant actually begged his master to forgive him. Before you wrongfully think that this somehow helps you out, let me point out something for you.

Boldly walking up to your Master and simply informing him that you freely accept his gift of forgiving your debt is tantamount to a blasphemy against the person of the Son. It is highly irreverent. The wicked servant actually got this part right: he BEGGED his master to forgive him. You see, first of all, our Master is under no obligation to forgive. To say that he is under obligation is to flat out declare that he actually owed something to man. And that is just plain blasphemy. Secondly, there is a big difference between begging for forgiveness and informing your master that you presumptuously accept his forgiveness. On both points, your Arminianism falls woefully short.

This isn't hard, ftd.

In the service of the Lord,
Christian.


779 posted on 01/27/2005 8:26:30 AM PST by thePilgrim
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To: HarleyD; jkl1122
God works exactly the same way in everyone's life. God show no partiality. Period.

Strangely enough, I think I'm more Calvinist in this area than you.

First, if you truly believe that, you cannot be a Calvinist, since Calvinism vehemously defends God's right to show all the partiality that He wants, even in the matter of choosing whether to allow us to love Him or not.

Secondly, I do believe that the gifts of the Spirit are still operative today. Nevertheless, 1 Cor. 12-14 is clear that God does not give all believers all the same gifts. Ergo, there's a measure of "partiality" involved there--that is, He equips us for the unique ministries He has in mind for each of us, but not everyone ministers in the same way. How many people go around parting the seas, for example?

The only Spiritual gift that God promises to give abundantly to anyone who asks is wisdom, per James 1:5. Now, I do believe that if you are fruitful with your given gifts, you will be given more (and more responsibilities to go with them), but when and how much is strictly up to God.

That being said, jkl1122 is incorrect on how many were immersed (baptized) in the Holy Spirit in Acts. There are other instances where the Holy Spirit fell upon people with power when the Apostles laid their hands on them. The Apostles came to Philip's evangelistic meetings expressly to give the Spirit's full immersion to those who had been saved, for example (remember how Simon the Sorceror wanted to buy that power), and the fact that the Gentiles were exhibiting the Spritual gifts was a major part of Paul and Barnabbas' case in Acts 15. Besides, 1 Cor. 12-14 makes no sense except in the context of continuing miracles by the Holy Spirit in the Church, including the gift of tongues.

780 posted on 01/27/2005 8:27:37 AM PST by Buggman (Your failure to be informed does not make me a kook.)
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