Posted on 01/21/2005 6:34:28 AM PST by P-Marlowe
Michael Horton is my second favorite teacher, right behind RC Sproul. I can't wait for Sundays just to hear the new White Horse Inn.
I've decided I need to read his book "Putting the Amazing Back Into Grace" once a year. It is a wonderful read. If more Christians read this wonderful book American Christianity would escape from the post-Finney era we live in.
God cannot be arbitrary in anything.
Shall not the judge of all the earth do right? (Gen.18:25)
But where is Romans 8:35-39 did you find the exclusion of the elect from the eternal security of God?
Perhaps you meant "cannot" separate himself from the love of God?
***God cannot be arbitrary in anything.***
I take that as you don't have a verse. So, we see, yet again, Arminians imposing their own philosophical ideas about what is just and not just with God upon the Scriptures.
Well, like I said, you can call God's election arbitrary if you wish. It really doesn't bother me.
In the service of the Lord,
Christian.
Where do you get the idea that faith is a gift from God?
In my mind that's pretty amazing considering it is God who initiates the process. God came to Abraham and Noah, not the other way around. The scriptures says this is what happened. There is no indication that God looked down a "time tunnel" to see if they would have faith to the end of their days.
Who ever said that God didn't initiate salvation?
God always initiates, but man has to freely respond.
And all men are able to respond if they will.
Stop setting up straw men, no one on these threads has ever stated that man can do anything for his salvation except accept it as a free gift (Jn.1:12) or reject it (Jn.3:36)
What part of Gen.18:25 do you not understand?
Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?
You cannot be doing right if you are being arbitary.
Exactly.
Even the Christian cannot separate himself from the love of God.
What Must I Do To Be Saved?
Ephesians 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God
Hey, guess what, an Angel does preach a Gospel (an everlasting Gospel) in Rev.14:6)
So there are different Gospel messages based on the Dispensations.
Now if an Angel preached another Gospel during this dispensation, that would be a false one.
But during the Tribulation period, this Gospel will be preached and it will be legimate.
By the way, what is the Gospel for today?
***What part of Gen.18:25 do you not understand?***
Perhaps it is the part about God doing right being judged by Arminian standards of what is right and what is arbitrary.
So, if you can show me a verse which teaches that God is not arbitrary by your Arminian definition, I'll be happy to look at it.
Until then, this is yet another humanistic presupposition imposed on Scriptures; i.e. man judging God my man's standard, not God's.
***You cannot be doing right if you are being arbitary.***
Well, let's look at a dictionary definition of arbitrary:
Based on or subject to individual (read God's) judgment.
Established by a court or judge (read God).
Now, both of those are legitimate definitions of arbitrary. Please explain to me why God is not doing right if His judgments are rendered by God. Is there some higher power or standard to which God must bow in order to make his appeal for what is right and wrong? If so, I'd like for you Arminians to show me where it is and then explain to me why you don't worship a power higher than God.
Also, please show me where, if God makes his election based upon nothing to be found in or done by man, that this somehow makes God arbitrary and doing something wrong.
Thanks,
Christian.
I would agree. I don't think God is a random number generator and I think He had a divine purpose in mind when Noah found "favor" from the Lord. As you pointed out the favor the Noah received from God could not have been because of any behavior Noah exhibited. It is God's divine plan from which Noah was selected and why Noah we don't know but it wasn't because Noah was "a good guy". And I believe God works exactly like this in each one of our lives.
Deu 29:29 "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.
Also, faith is not a work (Rom.4)
God saw that they would have faith and their works would follow that faith.(James 2:21-22)
***By the way, what is the Gospel for today?***
Well, I think it is the only gospel.
But you seem to think that there are many, so why don't you clue me into which is the legitimate gospel for today, which was not the right gospel yesterday and won't be the right gospel tomorrow.
I'd really like to know.
Christian.
It depends ~entirely~ on which people who think they know you talk to.
Faith is a gift from God.
Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;"
If God looked down the "time tunnel" to see their faith, the only thing He would see is the gift He had given them.
Even the Christian cannot separate himself from the love of God.
I'm assuming here we agree the meaning of "Christian" implies "Trinitarian Christian." The term seems to be tossed around somewhat carelessly these days.
But I'm not sure why the word "even" is in the sentence. I'd substitute "only" for "even." "Only the Christian cannot separate himself from the love of God." Thus "eternal security" for the sheep.
The reprobate are and will always be "separated from the love of God."
Or else they would be Trinitarian Christians (or believing Jews, whom I don't consider as reprobate.)
I was given "Putting the Amazing Back into Grace" years ago. I think I'll dig it out and read it again, too. Thanks. 8~)
So, if you can show me a verse which teaches that God is not arbitrary by your Arminian definition, I'll be happy to look at it. Until then, this is yet another humanistic presupposition imposed on Scriptures; i.e. man judging God my man's standard, not God's. ***You cannot be doing right if you are being arbitary.*** Well, let's look at a dictionary definition of arbitrary: Based on or subject to individual (read God's) judgment. Established by a court or judge (read God).
I have a dictonary that states, 'left to ones whim', capricious and despotic.
Now, that certanily does sound like the God of Calvinism alright.
It is not however the God of the Bible, who judges fairly based on objective standards that He Himself sets.
That is why Abraham (the great Arminian hero of Faith) could ask that question to the Lord since He knew God was not a Calvinistic God.
The Calvinist prophet Jonah found that out also and sulked.
Also, please show me where, if God makes his election based upon nothing to be found in or done by man, that this somehow makes God arbitrary and doing something wrong.
Because all men are equal before God (not being a respector of persons Rom.2:11), so why would God damn one and not another?
What critera would He use?
Your view of God is no different than any Muslim.
Another Calvinist who refuses to give the Gospel!
I really wonder how many of you guys really are saved!
In the church age, a believing Jew is no longer a Jew but a Christian (Gal.3:28), as is a believing Gentile.
Ofcourse, the passage is only referring to those that are saved, i.e. Christians.
The unbeliever is separated from God (Eph.2) and if he does not believe the wrath of God comes upon him (Jn.3:36)
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