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To: thePilgrim
***What part of Gen.18:25 do you not understand?*** Perhaps it is the part about God doing right being judged by Arminian standards of what is right and what is arbitrary.

So, if you can show me a verse which teaches that God is not arbitrary by your Arminian definition, I'll be happy to look at it. Until then, this is yet another humanistic presupposition imposed on Scriptures; i.e. man judging God my man's standard, not God's. ***You cannot be doing right if you are being arbitary.*** Well, let's look at a dictionary definition of arbitrary: Based on or subject to individual (read God's) judgment. Established by a court or judge (read God).

I have a dictonary that states, 'left to ones whim', capricious and despotic.

Now, that certanily does sound like the God of Calvinism alright.

It is not however the God of the Bible, who judges fairly based on objective standards that He Himself sets.

That is why Abraham (the great Arminian hero of Faith) could ask that question to the Lord since He knew God was not a Calvinistic God.

The Calvinist prophet Jonah found that out also and sulked.

Also, please show me where, if God makes his election based upon nothing to be found in or done by man, that this somehow makes God arbitrary and doing something wrong.

Because all men are equal before God (not being a respector of persons Rom.2:11), so why would God damn one and not another?

What critera would He use?

Your view of God is no different than any Muslim.

118 posted on 01/22/2005 11:12:50 AM PST by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration; thePilgrim
Because all men are equal before God (not being a respector of persons Rom.2:11)

Exactly. And as pointed out before, our differences then must come down to what kind of men/women we all are.

The Arminian simply doesn't believe that Original Sin made man incapable of choosing wisely or righteously.

But that's the point of God ordaining all of creation in the first place.

If "man" hadn't sinned, if man's nature wasn't corruptible, if man was like God, then Adam would have not sinned. He would have been an obedient, enlightened, happy and saved creature.

But God shows us that He did not create that kind of creature in the first place. He created an "imperfect" creature who was incapable of obeying God and incapable of saving himself.

This concept gets diluted into meaninglessness (and eventual heresy) if fallen man can then in any way save himself by something within himself. He can't.

Ultimately and forever, only God can save man. That's the POINT of the entire Old and New Testaments. It's the plot-line that holds all the words and characters and actions together, culminating is the magnificent climax on Calvary where God actually SHOWS us that we cannot save ourselves; HE must do it for us.

so why would God damn one and not another?

That's an eternal mystery to man. I'm content to read Scripture and know that I am not entitled to that understanding.

"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory" -- Romans 9:15-23.

How much clearer does it have to be?

No one is prevented from believing. But all who believe do so because it is the will of God, and not the will of man.

It's just not in man to be God.

Paul didn't rise from the cross on Calvary. Abraham didn't rise from the cross on Calvary. God rose from the cross on Calvary. Only God, by His will alone, ordained by Him according to His good and Holy pleasure from before the foundation of the world.

Look at the first line of this essay -- "Jesus Christ is calling you."

Thank you, God, never. Jesus Christ is not whistling in the dark, nor pleading to strangers. He summons His sheep and they come because they know His voice. Christ did a whole lot more than "call." He suffered and died and was resurrected for all those whom the Father had given Him to gather together from before creation.

And He looses not one.

Eternal Security.

127 posted on 01/22/2005 12:12:06 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (There are very few shades of gray.)
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To: fortheDeclaration; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Dr. Eckleburg

***Your view of God is no different than any Muslim.***

Actually, Arminianism is much closer to Islam than anything Reformed. Just look at what the Arminians did when they got control of England. Now, there was a pretty picture.

The Dutch Calvinists actually let the Arminians worship in their churches as they wanted to worship.

Christian.


133 posted on 01/22/2005 12:31:36 PM PST by thePilgrim
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