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Endless complaints. |
Posted on 12/31/2004 2:21:30 PM PST by Caipirabob
What's wrong about this photo? Or if you're a true-born Southerner, what's right?
While scanning through some of the up and coming movies in 2005, I ran across this intriguing title; "CSA: Confederate States of America (2005)". It's an "alternate universe" take on what would the country be like had the South won the civil war.
Stars with bars:
Suffice to say anything from Hollywood on this topic is sure to to bring about all sorts of controversial ideas and discussions. I was surprised that they are approaching such subject matter, and I'm more than a little interested.
Some things are better left dead in the past:
For myself, I was more than pleased with the homage paid to General "Stonewall" Jackson in Turner's "Gods and Generals". Like him, I should have like to believe that the South would have been compelled to end slavery out of Christian dignity rather than continue to enslave their brothers of the freedom that belong equally to all men. Obviously it didn't happen that way.
Would I fight for a South that believed in Slavery today? I have to ask first, would I know any better back then? I don't know. I honestly don't know. My pride for my South and my heritage would have most likely doomed me as it did so many others. I won't skirt the issue, in all likelyhood, slavery may have been an afterthought. Had they been the staple of what I considered property, I possibly would have already been past the point of moral struggle on the point and preparing to kill Northern invaders.
Compelling story or KKK wet dream?:
So what do I feel about this? The photo above nearly brings me to tears, as I highly respect Abraham Lincoln. I don't care if they kick me out of the South. Imagine if GW was in prayer over what to do about a seperatist leftist California. That's how I imagine Lincoln. A great man. I wonder sometimes what my family would have been like today. How many more of us would there be? Would we have held onto the property and prosperity that sustained them before the war? Would I have double the amount of family in the area? How many would I have had to cook for last week for Christmas? Would I have needed to make more "Pate De Fois Gras"?
Well, dunno about that either. Depending on what the previous for this movie are like, I may or may not see it. If they portray it as the United Confederacy of the KKK I won't be attending.
This generation of our clan speaks some 5 languages in addition to English, those being of recent immigrants to this nation. All of them are good Americans. I believe the south would have succombed to the same forces that affected the North. Immigration, war, economics and other huma forces that have changed the map of the world since history began.
Whatever. At least in this alternate universe, it's safe for me to believe that we would have grown to be the benevolent and humane South that I know it is in my heart. I can believe that slavery would have died shortly before or after that lost victory. I can believe that Southern gentlemen would have served the world as the model for behavior. In my alternate universe, it's ok that Spock has a beard. It's my alternate universe after all, it can be what I want.
At any rate, I lived up North for many years. Wonderful people and difficult people. I will always sing their praises as a land full of beautiful Italian girls, maple syrup and Birch beer. My uncle ribbed us once before we left on how we were going up North to live "with all the Yankees". Afterwards I always refered to him as royalty. He is, really. He's "King of the Rednecks". I suppose I'm his court jester.
So what do you think of this movie?
Sir:
I have a MASTERS DEGREE in US & WORLD History...I don't deal in "fantasy".......In my belief, they would have made a go of it. It is ALL conjecture regardless.....
Yawn. You did so twice:
"No, what I claimed was that the Conferderates never had formal recognition as a nation." - ftD, Post 1444
"Yet, no nations formally recognized the Confederacy as such." - ftD, Post 967
As I said previously, lying will get you nowhere around here. You'll always get caught and when caught you're better off apologizing and moving on.
THE FINAL SOLUTION
Finally, as a postscript to Sherman and Sheridan's barbarism toward the south, Sherman wrote to Sheridan in 1868 concerning Sheridan's assaults on the Indians, telling him to act with all the vigor he had shown in the Shenandoah Valley during the final months of the Civil War. And Sherman promised to cover for him if the press started writing about "atrocities."Sherman, as commander over the forces against the Indians, after the Civil War, sent a letter to President Grant: We must act with vindictive earnestness against the Sious, even to their extermination, men, women, and children. Nothing else will reach the root of this case." Sherman was to call the massacre of all American Indians his "final solution to the Indian problem," a phrase the Nazis were to use for the Holocaust. Just before Sherman died in 1891 he complained bitterly about civilian interference in his Indian policies, which had prevented him from getting "rid of them all."
Ulysses S. Grant, as commander of all Union armies, sent an order to General Sheridan on 16 July 1864 concerning the Confederate Colonel John Mosby, whose raids behind Union lines diverted as many as 30,000 Union troops trying to track him down. Ordered Grant, "Where any of Mosby's men are caught, hang them without a trial."
SOURCE: Stanley P. Hirshson, The White Tecumseh: A Biography of General William T. Sherman, John Wiley and Sons, Inc., 1997, p. 72, 298, 315, 336, 352.
SHERMAN ON INDIAN AFFAIRS
Three days after Canby's Death, Sherman names as his successor Colonel Jefferson C. Davis of the the Twenty-third Indiana, the same Jeff Davis who twice on the march to Savannah had taken up pontoon bridges and abandoned fleeing slaves to the tender mercies of Wheeler's cavalry. Characterizing his soldiers as "cowardly beef eaters," Davis relentlessly pursued the Modocs, apprehending Jack on June 3. "Davis should have killed every Modoc before taking him if possible, Sherman advised Sheridan after the capture; "then there would have been no complications."
LOUISIANA MEETS SHERMAN, 1860.
As the building of his house progressed, Sherman confided to [his wife's brother] Tom that moving to Louisiana would
be a trial to Ellen -- far, far harder than San Francisco or Leavenworth. ... I have no doubt one of our first troubles will be that Ellen's servants will all quit, after we have gone into debt to get them here. And then she will have to wait on herself -- or "buy a nigger." What will you think of that -- our buying niggers -- but it is inevitable. Niggers wont work unless they are owned. And white servants are not to be found in this Parish. Everybody owns their own servants.... You must be careful in your black Republican speeches not to be down on us too hard, for your own sister may be found by necessity to traffic in Human flesh.
William Sherman to Thomas Ewing Jr., Seminary of Learning, June 21, 1860, box 154, Thomas Ewing Family Papers, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress.
SHERMAN ON RACE AND POLITICS
I see my name occasionally alluded to in conversation with some popular office. You may tell all that I would rather serve 4 years in the Sing Sing Penitentiary than in Washington & believe I could come out a better man. If that aint emphatic enough use stronger expressions and I will endorse them. Let those who love niggers better than whites follow me, and we will see who loves his Country best -- A nigger as such is a most excellent fellow, but he is not fit to marry, to associate, or vote with me, or mine.
William Sherman to William M. McPherson, Goldsboro (N.C.), March 24, 1865, Huntington Manuscripts, Henry E. Huntington Library, San Marino, California.
SHERMAN ON STANTON AND NEGRO SUFFRAGE
No amount of retraction or pusillanimous excusing will do. Mr Stanton must publicly confess himself a common libeller or -- but I wont threaten.... He seeks your life and reputaton as well as mine.... He wants the vast patronage of the military governorships of the South, and the votes of the Free Negro... for political Capital, and whoever stands in his way must die.
William Sherman to Ulysses S. Grant, camp opposite Richmond, May 10, 1865, reel 9, cont. 16, William Sherman Papers, Library of Congress.
SHERMAN DURING HIS STAY IN THE SOUTHWEST
Sante Fe is the oldest town in the United States except St Augustine, but the People with a few exceptions are greasers of the commonest sort....
William Sherman to Ellen Sherman, Santa Fe (N. Mex. Terr.), June 7, 1868, roll 3, Sherman Family Papers.
HEADQUARTERS FIFTEENTH ARMY CORPS,Memphis, October 10, 1863.
Major-General HALLECK,
Commander-in- Chief, Washington:DEAR GENERAL: I start out early in the morning to take the head of my corps, now stretched out as far as Bear Creek. A heavy force of the enemy’s cavalry hovers to the south and is going to bother us. not in reaching Athens, but in making this road a safe line of supply.
I have just received your letter of October 1, and assure you of my hearty concurrence in all you say. It has been to us all a source of pleasure to know that such perfect cordiality, social and official, existed among the generals on this line. One noted exception alone, who is disposed of. I hear of jealousies elsewhere and am astonished, as the war is not yet over, and a feeling of common safety and interest should make all harmonize, if not the higher sense of patriotism and duty. Neither McClellan nor Buell ever had a shadow of cause of ill-feeling to an administration or commander-in-chief who lavished on them all that man could ask. I know you had for both great personal friendship and manifested it on many occasions, and they mistake you and are ungrateful, if they attribute to you what thinking men in all times will attribute to their failure to appreciate the situation of the army and the country.
This war might end sooner than it will, but it may be the good of the future requires our people to pass through all the phases of revolution before they are again permitted to enjoy the luxury of peace and safety. When that time comes I believe we will be a better people, and the very ones who provoked war so thoughtlessly will be cured.
I have your telegram saying the President had read my letter and thought it should be published. I have no copy by me, but if I can recall it I think it won’t bear publication. Would it not impair my usefulness here? A great many people here and in Louisiana are influenced by men of my shade of opinion. They are full-blooded Sonthrons, were never disunionists, but were carried into rebellion by the tempest of feeling which their potiticians knew so well how to beget and guide. As long as a doubtful contest for supremacy exists between the two races they cannot control their choice; but as soon as we demonstrate equal courage, equal skill, superior resources, and superior tenacity of purpose, they will gradually relax and finally submit to men who profess, like myself, to fight for but one single purpose, viz, to sustain a Government capable of vindicating its just and rightful authority, independent of niggers, cotton, money, or any earthly interest. Might not the publication of my letter, even without my signature, impair my usefulness with the South? Still if you or Judge Holt, or General Hitchcock, or Reverdy Johnson, or Mr. Ewing would take my letter and mold it in such shape as not to compromise me, so as to serve any good purpose, I give my full consent to its use, or indeed to use anything I have. If I covet any public reputation it is as a silent actor. I dislike to see my name in print.
Thanking you always for many favors, I am, always your sincere friend,
W. T. SHERMAN.
Kill them ALL and let GOD sort them out! :)
Well, fantasy or conjecture the results are still the same, we do know that a United States defeated the Axis, and it is doubtful a divided one would have (in my opinion)
Yawn, the context of post 967 was the blockade and the fact that no nation gave them formal recogniation due to that word being used.
As for post 1444 in context states
No, what I claimed was that the Conferderates never had formal recognition as a nation. That a few minor nations reconized them as some did the Colonies does not constitute international recognition. Had our Revolution failed, we would have been seen as a failed colonial rebellion,not a nation that was defeated. Likewise, the Confederates are seen as a failed effort to breakaway from the United States, not as a nation that lost a war
As I said previously, lying will get you nowhere around here. You'll always get caught and when caught you're better off apologizing and moving on.
Now , when you have to smear an opponent to win an argument it shows either one of two things, a very weak argument or a very weak arguer.
In your case, I think it represents both.
Sherman was pro-South and was attacked for being too lenient on the Confederates.
As for hanging Mosby's men, they were irregulars operating behind Union lines.
When reviewing the map the weakest link in Terrorist Inc was removed first, being Afghanistan. On the other side of 'Persia' the second most serious threat was overthrown (Saddam's Ba'athist regimé) allowing for positioning of Western forces directly on Iran's oil rich life line. On the mullahs southern flank, the Persian Gulf, our Navy patrols & could blockage all Iranian crude when orders are issued.
Jihad exporting, nuclear threatening Iran is now geostrategically surrounded, on the three most important borders, her western (Afgani-old Soviet air bases under our control) southern (petroleum sea lanes) and western (the elongated, oil rich Iraqi-Iranian border. The only land based escape route for Iran's Shi'ite fanatics is too jump in the Caspian Sea, or run into the vast desert of Turkmenistan :)
When the Bush bashers start up again over the Iranian issue they will be reminded of the American hostage situation under Khomeini, the slaughter of the Marines in Lebanon, Iranian bankrolling of Hizballah, Hamas and scores of other Shi'ite terrorists coupled with the fact Iran & her ally, Syria is responsible for the deaths of hundreds of American servicemen, Coalition forces & Iraqi police.
The bottom line: It's time to take out the trash!
(The very first hint of tangible action regarding Iran, Opec's #2 exporter - oil prices will head back toward record highs - hint, hint)
'My allegiance was, as I considered it, not due to the United States, or to the people of the United States, but to Georgia, in her sovereign capacity. Georgia had never parted with her right to demand the ultimate allegiance of her citizens.' - Alexander Stephens
You're grasping at straws, ftD. You know what you said as well as any of us and it was a lie. CC'ing the two other biggest liars on this forum will make it no less a lie.
Well, hello Calhoun!
My ultimate allegiance is to the city of Sugar Land.
I have never regarded Texas or the United States as having any ultimate authority over me....
Anyone can look at the posts and see the truth.
Ad Hominem's is all that you and the rest of the Neo-confederate have left.
You and your fellow confederates dishonor the honorable memory of the real Confederates with your lies, distortions of facts, and pomposity.
That's what's so great about this forum, ftD, and the truth of those posts is that you lied and got caught.
No, that you attempted to depict me as lying by dropping context is what was revealed.
Liars do that all the time hoping the entire passage is not checked.
Now, if you do not have anything constructive to add, please do not waste my time anymore with your petty behaviour, it is only making you look worse.
Granted the word used was the wrong one.Yet, no nations formally recognized the Confederacy as such.
More 'gnat straining' from the ACLU.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-backroom/1311758/posts?q=1&&page=967
What's there is there, ftD, and you plainly and unequivocally denied that the CSA was ever formally recognized. You got caught fibbing and now you refuse to live with the consequences.
And no nations recognized the the Confederacy because of the Blockade, despite the international problems it caused.
When you learn to read, you will find context is very important.
The blockade was in place when Saxe-Coburg Gotha recognized the CSA. How do you know it was not a factor in their reasoning?
What does it mean? What happened to the Indians?
Sherman was pro-South and was attacked for being too lenient on the Confederates.
Yes, by the end of the war Sherman had been pro-South his entire life, and his tireless efforts on behalf of the South led to the building of monuments throughout the South to honor the efforts of Sherman during his Peace march.
As for hanging Mosby's men, they were irregulars operating behind Union lines.
Rumor has it that for some reason they stopped doing it. They must have been overtaken by a fit of compassion.
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