An opposing view: Descendant of black Confederate soldier speaks at museum

Thomasville Times-Enterprise ^ | 24 Feb 2004 | Mark Lastinger

[4CJ]

THOMASVILLE -- Nelson Winbush knows his voice isn't likely to be heard above the crowd that writes American history books. That doesn't keep him from speaking his mind, however.

A 75-year-old black man whose grandfather proudly fought in the gray uniform of the South during the Civil War, Winbush addressed a group of about 40 at the Thomas County Museum of History Sunday afternoon. To say the least, his perspective of the war differs greatly from what is taught in America's classrooms today.

"People have manufactured a lot of mistruths about why the war took place," he said. "It wasn't about slavery. It was about state's rights and tariffs."

Many of Winbush's words were reserved for the Confederate battle flag, which still swirls amid controversy more than 150 years after it originally flew.

"This flag has been lied about more than any flag in the world," Winbush said. "People see it and they don't really know what the hell they are looking at."

About midway through his 90-minute presentation, Winbush's comments were issued with extra force.

"This flag is the one that draped my grandfathers' coffin," he said while clutching it strongly in his left hand. "I would shudder to think what would happen if somebody tried to do something to this particular flag."

Winbush, a retired in educator and Korean War veteran who resides in Kissimmee, Fla., said the Confederate battle flag has been hijacked by racist groups, prompting unwarranted criticism from its detractors.

"This flag had nothing to with the (Ku Klux) klan or skinheads," he said while wearing a necktie that featured the Confederate emblem. "They weren't even heard of then. It was just a guide to follow in battle.

"That's all it ever was."

Winbush said Confederate soldiers started using the flag with the St. Andrews cross because its original flag closely resembled the U.S. flag. The first Confederate flag's blue patch in an upper corner and its alternating red and white stripes caused confusion on the battlefield, he said.

"Neither side (of the debate) knows what the flag represents," Winbush said. "It's dumb and dumber. You can turn it around, but it's still two dumb bunches.

"If you learn anything else today, don't be dumb."

Winbush learned about the Civil War at the knee of Louis Napoleon Nelson, who joined his master and one of his master's sons in battle voluntarily when he was 14. Nelson saw combat at Lookout Mountain, Bryson's Crossroads, Shiloh and Vicksburg.

"At Shiloh, my grandfather served as a chaplain even though he couldn't read or write," said Winbush, who bolstered his points with photos, letters and newspapers that used to belong to his grandfather. "I've never heard of a black Yankee holding such an office, so that makes him a little different."

Winbush said his grandfather, who also served as a "scavenger," never had any qualms about fighting for the South. He had plenty of chances to make a break for freedom, but never did. He attended 39 Confederate reunions, the final one in 1934. A Sons of Confederate Veterans Chapter in Tennessee is named after him.

"People ask why a black person would fight for the Confederacy. (It was) for the same damned reason a white Southerner did," Winbush explained.

Winbush said Southern blacks and whites often lived together as extended families., adding slaves and slave owners were outraged when Union forces raided their homes. He said history books rarely make mention of this.

"When the master and his older sons went to war, who did he leave his families with?" asked Winbush, who grandfather remained with his former owners 12 years after the hostilities ended. "It was with the slaves. Were his (family members) mistreated? Hell, no!

"They were protected."

Winbush said more than 90,000 blacks, some of them free, fought for the Confederacy. He has said in the past that he would have fought by his grandfather's side in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry led by Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest.

After his presentation, Winbush opened the floor for questions. Two black women, including Jule Anderson of the Thomas County Historical Society Board of Directors, told him the Confederate battle flag made them uncomfortable.

Winbush, who said he started speaking out about the Civil War in 1992 after growing weary of what he dubbed "political correctness," was also challenged about his opinions.

"I have difficulty in trying to apply today's standards with what happened 150 years ago," he said to Anderson's tearful comments. "...That's what a lot of people are attempting to do. I'm just presenting facts, not as I read from some book where somebody thought that they understood. This came straight from the horse's mouth, and I refute anybody to deny that."

Thomas County Historical Society Board member and SVC member Chip Bragg moved in to close the session after it took a political turn when a white audience member voiced disapproval of the use of Confederate symbols on the state flag. Georgia voters are set to go to the polls a week from today to pick a flag to replace the 1956 version, which featured the St. Andrew's cross prominently.

"Those of us who are serious about our Confederate heritage are very unhappy with the trivialization of Confederate symbols and their misuse," he said. "Part of what we are trying to do is correct this misunderstanding."

[#3Fan]

Who were the Japanese fighting? They were HIDING. The last battle (as in WAR) was 12/13 May 1865, which was long after Lincoln was dead. Union Col. Theodore H. Barrett led some 500 men in defeat by attacking forces led by Confederate Col. John S. "Rip" Ford. The last offocial battle of the war was a Confederate victory.

Booth was a murderer and assassins will burn in hell. The war was over and he knew it.

You love to project your fantasies! Both are detesable for attempting to assassinate Presidents Gerald Ford and Ronald W. Reagan.

But booth is a great man, huh? You guys were saying how much you hate all northerners, is Laden a great man also then?

[#3Fan]

0 for 3. None of these occurred. The people voted to secede.

After having their government stolen by thugs. Saddam got 100% of the vote also. Immaterial. We have due process for elections, not thuggery.

[nolu chan]

[#3Fan] At least he didn't wear a dress.

It was your hero, Honest Abe who spent four years in bed with his boyfriend, Joshua Speed, swapping pillow talk.

Note the secret hand signal.

---

Conservative Republican W. Scott Thompson.

Was Lincoln Gay?
By W. Scott Thompson
Mr. Thompson is a professor at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, Tufts University.

In his early thirties, before either he or his love-object Joshua Speed married, they lived together in cramped circumstances over four full years; not to put too fine a point on it, "the young men slept in the same bed every night," according to a very straight and conventional source. [1] Perhaps we are meant to accept this habit precisely for its openness--since it is not covered up--as necessitated by frontier privation rather than erotic preference: an inference more in the category of the anxious denial of the historian rather than the compelling illogic of the evidence--a memorable avoidance indeed, since it does not even pass the straight-face test.

[1] Mark E. Neely, Jr., The Abraham Lincoln Encyclopedia (1982), p. 284.

Note that secret hand signal again.

In "Abraham Lincoln: The Prairie Years" (1926), Carl Sandberg wrote that their relationship had "a streak of lavender and spots soft as May violets," which some have taken as a veiled reference to homosexuality. In 1995, just after Bob Dole rejected campaign contributions from the Log Cabin Republicans, a gay GOP group, Log Cabin member W. Scott Thompson was quoted in the New York Times as saying that gays should feel welcome in the party, "given that the founder was gay." Indeed, Abe has been called the original Log Cabin Republican.

That Sandburg guy sure could write pretty prose, couldn't he?

---

Larry Kramer, of ACT-UP

Quoting Joshua Speed's letters in reference to Lincoln, Kramer read to his Madison audience: "He often kisses me when I tease him, often to shut me up.... He would grab me up by his long arms and hug and hug.''

One of Speed's letters that Kramer quoted told how the later-to-be U.S. President felt hungry for affection: "Yes, our Abe is like a school girl,'' said Speed.

---

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[#3Fan]

You guys are so dumb you'll believe anything. Tell me again about McClellan voters being shot in the voting booths. That was a good one.

[#3Fan]

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

I hope I'm there to watch you try to justify your lies.

[4CJ]

Booth was a murderer and assassins will burn in hell. The war was over and he knew it.

You excuse Lincoln/Dahlgren as occuring before the end of the war. The war did not end until May 1865. Some of the Confederate forces surrendered in April 1865, but others were very much still active. The end of the war is when the LAST forces surrender, NOT the first.

But booth is a great man, huh? You guys were saying how much you hate all northerners, is Laden a great man also then?

Who said Booth was great? YOU justify the slaughter of civilians as justifiable as war measures, Booth obviously agreed with your position. Bin Laden should be covered in pig fat, castrated, and dumped out of an airlplane cruising at 35,000 feet without a parachute.

[4CJ]

After having their government stolen by thugs. Saddam got 100% of the vote also. Immaterial. We have due process for elections, not thuggery.

The people of Texas wanted elections. When the governor convened the legislature, they dissolved and allowed the Texas Constitutional convention to assemble in House chambers.

Please post your documentation proving that the Texas government was stolen.

[#3Fan]

You excuse Lincoln/Dahlgren as occuring before the end of the war.

Lincoln/Dahlgren? What was Lincoln/Dahlgren (and no exaggerations again please!)? Is this another of those things that was going to happen but magically didn't again, like rapes, hangings, and voter shootings?

The war did not end until May 1865. Some of the Confederate forces surrendered in April 1865, but others were very much still active. The end of the war is when the LAST forces surrender, NOT the first.

Booth knew the war was over and therefore it was murder. Assassins will burn in hell.

Who said Booth was great?

I'm asking. I've yet to see you denounce his actions. nolu chan certainly was taking glee in his actions.

YOU justify the slaughter of civilians as justifiable as war measures, Booth obviously agreed with your position.

I justify the burning of supplies in Sherman's case. In Ike's and Truman's, sure. Booth knew the war was over.

Bin Laden should be covered in pig fat, castrated, and dumped out of an airlplane cruising at 35,000 feet without a parachute.

But he killed those that you hate so much. Why the inconsistency? Were you exaggerating about your hate for northerners also?

[#3Fan]

The people of Texas wanted elections.

They had elections. Their elected representatives were in the statehouse, not the bullies in the convention hall.

When the governor convened the legislature, they dissolved and allowed the Texas Constitutional convention to assemble in House chambers.

That's not republicanism, that's handing power to thugs, a coup.

Please post your documentation proving that the Texas government was stolen.

You just confirmed it. They discouraged dissenters from participating further proving the coup.

[4CJ]

Booth was wrong to kill Lincoln. Sherman [*spit*] was wrong to target civilians. Lincoln was wrong to target Richmond, President Davis and the Confederate cabinet.

But he [bin Laden] killed those that you hate so much. Why the inconsistency? Were you exaggerating about your hate for northerners also?

Bin Laden killed Lincoln and members of the Union Army? Did he invent time travel?

Osama bin Idiot killed Americans, of which I am one. You know nothing about me, whether or not I had family or friends killed by these fruitcakes. Please refrain from your inane, unfounded suppositions.

[4CJ]

They had elections. Their elected representatives were in the statehouse, not the bullies in the convention hall.

There's a disconnect here.

1) The people of Texas elected their STATE representatives via elections (vote #1). Congressmen. Senators and Representatives. The Governor. PUBLIC Officials whose acts are PUBLIC. Public officials who are not empowered to alter their form of government, they must enact legislation conformable to their Constitution

2) The people of Texas demanded a vote on secession. The people of Texas elected delegates to a constitutional convention (vote #2). These delegates are the SOVERIEGN representatives of the people, empowered to alter or abolish their form of government at will.

3) The governor of Texas (a public official) called the legislature into session hoping that the legislature (public officials) would refuse to recognize the validity of the constitutional delegates.

4) The legislature recognized the legality of constitutional delegates, and promptly voted (vote #3) to end the special session.

5) The Sovereign delegates (see #2 above) elected by the people, and recognized as duly elected by the legislature (see #1 above) convened. These delegates were NOT the legislature. Among them were several members of the Texas Supreme Court, including Chief Justice Oran Roberts, who presided over the convention.

6) The delegates to the convention voted to secede (vote #4), and put the matter before the people.

7) The people of Texas voted to secede (vote #5).

Re-read #4. Their elected representatives deferred to their elected delegates. The legislature did not object. Please post your documentation of a "coup".

[#3Fan]

Booth was wrong to kill Lincoln. Sherman [*spit*] was wrong to target civilians.

He didn't. He targeted supplies, as all good generals do. See Ike for an example.

Lincoln was wrong to target Richmond, President Davis and the Confederate cabinet.

What are you talking about? I remember them surviving the war. Is this another one of those things that you're exaggerating about saying it could've happened like the rapes, the hanging, and the voter killings?

Bin Laden killed Lincoln and members of the Union Army? Did he invent time travel?

You guys were talking earlier of how despicable all northerners are. Were you exaggerating?

Osama bin Idiot killed Americans, of which I am one. You know nothing about me, whether or not I had family or friends killed by these fruitcakes. Please refrain from your inane, unfounded suppositions.

Just going by you guy's own words. If you don't find northerners dispicable, quit saying so, and I won't assume Laden is your hero. I've certainly never said anything against southerners, just the slaveholders.

[#3Fan]

There's a disconnect here. 1) The people of Texas elected their STATE representatives via elections (vote #1). Congressmen. Senators and Representatives. The Governor. PUBLIC Officials whose acts are PUBLIC. Public officials who are not empowered to alter their form of government, they must enact legislation conformable to their Constitution

They dissolved the republican government before attempting secession thereby violating Article IV, Section 4. If they're to secede and form a new government, they're to keep the republican government in place until secession is complete, following Article IV, Section 1 in the process of seceding.

2) The people of Texas demanded a vote on secession. The people of Texas elected delegates to a constitutional convention (vote #2).

Not true. Some were kept out. That's what makes it a coup.

These delegates are the SOVERIEGN representatives of the people, empowered to alter or abolish their form of government at will.

Nope, they are bullies depriving the citizens of their republican government. They were not elected in free elections, nor due process elections. The governer himself knew this.

3) The governor of Texas (a public official) called the legislature into session hoping that the legislature (public officials) would refuse to recognize the validity of the constitutional delegates.

As they should've done according to Article IV, Section 4.

4) The legislature recognized the legality of constitutional delegates, and promptly voted (vote #3) to end the special session.

That was unconstitutional according to Article IV, Section 4.

5) The Sovereign delegates (see #2 above) elected by the people,...

Some were kept out making it moreso a coup.

...and recognized as duly elected by the legislature (see #1 above) convened.

Unconstitutionally according to Article IV, Section 4.

These delegates were NOT the legislature.

Thereby making it a coup and in violation of Article IV, Section 4.

Among them were several members of the Texas Supreme Court, including Chief Justice Oran Roberts, who presided over the convention.

Immaterial.

6) The delegates to the convention voted to secede (vote #4), and put the matter before the people.

They didn't have the power to do that seeing as how they were not elected by due process.

7) The people of Texas voted to secede (vote #5).

After the coup making it immaterial. Saddam got 100% of the vote also.

Re-read #4. Their elected representatives deferred to their elected delegates.

Unconstitutionally according to Article IV, Section 4.

The legislature did not object.

In violation of Article IV, Section 4.

Please post your documentation of a "coup".

You just proved a coup yourself. Some were kept out of the process further proving the coup. What about my Alec Baldwin example. Would you consider that legitimate?

[4CJ]

They dissolved the republican government before attempting secession ...

When did they dissolve their "republican" government?

Not true. Some were kept out. That's what makes it a coup.

Felons can't vote in elections. Is that a "coup"?

They were not elected in free elections, nor due process elections.

And what Supreme Court arrived at that conclusion, and invalidated their elections?

As they should've done according to Article IV, Section 4.

Who invaded Texas, or where is the appliciation to the federal government from the legislature or governor?

That was unconstitutional according to Article IV, Section 4.

Who invaded Texas, or where is the appliciation to the federal government from the legislature or governor?

Immaterial.

Proves it had the assent of the Chief Justice, and the people.

You just proved a coup yourself. Some were kept out of the process further proving the coup. What about my Alec Baldwin example. Would you consider that legitimate?

Who the heck is Alec Baldwin & why should I care? Was he a citizen of Texan? Where is any proof of anyone being denied a vote, or the decision of a Court invalidating the results?

[#3Fan]

When did they dissolve their "republican" government?

When they handed the gavels to thugs.

Felons can't vote in elections. Is that a "coup"?

Keeping legitimate voters from participating is a coup. Handing the gavels of power to someone unelected is a coup.

And what Supreme Court arrived at that conclusion, and invalidated their elections?

I can read the Constitution and the Constitution guarantees republican government, not thuggery.

Who invaded Texas, or where is the appliciation to the federal government from the legislature or governor?

The citizens have a right to republican government as Article IV Section 4 says.

Who invaded Texas, or where is the appliciation to the federal government from the legislature or governor?

The citizens have a right to republican government as Article IV Section 4 says.

Proves it had the assent of the Chief Justice, and the people.

The people were kept out and the Constitution is for the people, not just for justices.

Who the heck is Alec Baldwin & why should I care?

You refuse to answer my hypothetical because you can't answer it. In order to be consistent, you would have to agree that Daschle could do as I said.

Was he a citizen of Texan? Where is any proof of anyone being denied a vote,...

People were kept out.

...or the decision of a Court invalidating the results?

The Court was part of the coup.

[4CJ]

If The Democrats win the Senate and the House this year and Daschle decided that it's be easier to just give the gavels to Alec Baldwin in Hollywood and have conventions in Hollywood to run the country so the Teamsters can guard the convention halls to keep dissenting Republicans out of the process to pass all the self-serving laws they can come up with, would you consider it legitimate? I didn't think so. That's what was done in Texas.

You're delusional! It is nothing like what was done in Texas. First of all, you have not posted anything - not one shred of evidence - that proves anyone was unable to vote for a delegate, or even that their vote would have swung the election. The Texas Constitution recognizes the right of the people of Texas to alter their form of government at will. In PRECISELY the same manner the used to RATIFY the US Constitution.

Post evidence of your asinine & ludicrous assertions.

[Gianni]

Brig. General Stand Watie bump.

[Gianni]

I said "states" meaning the slaveholders who pushed secession.

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States (n):

the slaveholders who pushed secession.

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From #3Dictionary, no doubt.

[Gianni]

You guys were saying how much you hate all northerners,

As usual, you guys said no such thing.

It is a product of #3brain, typed by #3finger into #3computer. Atrributed wrongly to someone else.

[Gianni]

Booth did not know the war was over. The principle actors did not even know the war was over. What Lincoln had, what Lincoln was celebrating, was the honerable surrender of the Army of Northern Virginia.

Lincoln's greatest fear was that the country would be ripped asunder by partisan warfare and guerrilla attacks for years to come. He did not know the war was over.

Davis pressed Johnston to take his army Westward into the trans-Mississippi where the remaining confederates could regroup and rally. He did not know the war was over.

News of the surrender of the ANV would take weeks to make it into the western theater and the deep south, especially since Sherman had destroyed any mechanism for communication.

You are mistaken about the facts.