Posted on 02/25/2004 11:52:26 AM PST by 4CJ
THOMASVILLE -- Nelson Winbush knows his voice isn't likely to be heard above the crowd that writes American history books. That doesn't keep him from speaking his mind, however.
A 75-year-old black man whose grandfather proudly fought in the gray uniform of the South during the Civil War, Winbush addressed a group of about 40 at the Thomas County Museum of History Sunday afternoon. To say the least, his perspective of the war differs greatly from what is taught in America's classrooms today.
"People have manufactured a lot of mistruths about why the war took place," he said. "It wasn't about slavery. It was about state's rights and tariffs."
Many of Winbush's words were reserved for the Confederate battle flag, which still swirls amid controversy more than 150 years after it originally flew.
"This flag has been lied about more than any flag in the world," Winbush said. "People see it and they don't really know what the hell they are looking at."
About midway through his 90-minute presentation, Winbush's comments were issued with extra force.
"This flag is the one that draped my grandfathers' coffin," he said while clutching it strongly in his left hand. "I would shudder to think what would happen if somebody tried to do something to this particular flag."
Winbush, a retired in educator and Korean War veteran who resides in Kissimmee, Fla., said the Confederate battle flag has been hijacked by racist groups, prompting unwarranted criticism from its detractors.
"This flag had nothing to with the (Ku Klux) klan or skinheads," he said while wearing a necktie that featured the Confederate emblem. "They weren't even heard of then. It was just a guide to follow in battle.
"That's all it ever was."
Winbush said Confederate soldiers started using the flag with the St. Andrews cross because its original flag closely resembled the U.S. flag. The first Confederate flag's blue patch in an upper corner and its alternating red and white stripes caused confusion on the battlefield, he said.
"Neither side (of the debate) knows what the flag represents," Winbush said. "It's dumb and dumber. You can turn it around, but it's still two dumb bunches.
"If you learn anything else today, don't be dumb."
Winbush learned about the Civil War at the knee of Louis Napoleon Nelson, who joined his master and one of his master's sons in battle voluntarily when he was 14. Nelson saw combat at Lookout Mountain, Bryson's Crossroads, Shiloh and Vicksburg.
"At Shiloh, my grandfather served as a chaplain even though he couldn't read or write," said Winbush, who bolstered his points with photos, letters and newspapers that used to belong to his grandfather. "I've never heard of a black Yankee holding such an office, so that makes him a little different."
Winbush said his grandfather, who also served as a "scavenger," never had any qualms about fighting for the South. He had plenty of chances to make a break for freedom, but never did. He attended 39 Confederate reunions, the final one in 1934. A Sons of Confederate Veterans Chapter in Tennessee is named after him.
"People ask why a black person would fight for the Confederacy. (It was) for the same damned reason a white Southerner did," Winbush explained.
Winbush said Southern blacks and whites often lived together as extended families., adding slaves and slave owners were outraged when Union forces raided their homes. He said history books rarely make mention of this.
"When the master and his older sons went to war, who did he leave his families with?" asked Winbush, who grandfather remained with his former owners 12 years after the hostilities ended. "It was with the slaves. Were his (family members) mistreated? Hell, no!
"They were protected."
Winbush said more than 90,000 blacks, some of them free, fought for the Confederacy. He has said in the past that he would have fought by his grandfather's side in the 7th Tennessee Cavalry led by Gen. Nathan Bedford Forest.
After his presentation, Winbush opened the floor for questions. Two black women, including Jule Anderson of the Thomas County Historical Society Board of Directors, told him the Confederate battle flag made them uncomfortable.
Winbush, who said he started speaking out about the Civil War in 1992 after growing weary of what he dubbed "political correctness," was also challenged about his opinions.
"I have difficulty in trying to apply today's standards with what happened 150 years ago," he said to Anderson's tearful comments. "...That's what a lot of people are attempting to do. I'm just presenting facts, not as I read from some book where somebody thought that they understood. This came straight from the horse's mouth, and I refute anybody to deny that."
Thomas County Historical Society Board member and SVC member Chip Bragg moved in to close the session after it took a political turn when a white audience member voiced disapproval of the use of Confederate symbols on the state flag. Georgia voters are set to go to the polls a week from today to pick a flag to replace the 1956 version, which featured the St. Andrew's cross prominently.
"Those of us who are serious about our Confederate heritage are very unhappy with the trivialization of Confederate symbols and their misuse," he said. "Part of what we are trying to do is correct this misunderstanding."
In re the near 100% vote, did:
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
CHARGE AND SPECIFICATION
AGAINST
DAVID E. HEROLD, GEORGE A. ATZERODT, LEWIS PAYNE, MICHAEL O'LAUGHLIN, EDWARD SPANGLER, SAMUEL ARNOLD, MARY E. SURRATT, AND SAMUEL A. MUDD.
CHARGE. -- For maliciously, unlawfully, and traitorously, and in aid of the then existing armed rebellion against the United States of America, on or before the 6th day of March, A. D. 1865, and on divers other days between that day and the 15th day of April, A. D. 1865, combining, confederating, and conspiring together with one John H. Surratt, John Wilkes Booth, Jefferson Davis, George N. Sanders, Beverly Tucker, Jacob Thompson, William C. Cleary, Clement C. Clay, George Harper, George Young, and others unknown, to kill and murder, within the Military Department of Washington, and within the fortified and intrenched lines thereof, Abraham Lincoln, late, and at the time of said combining, confederating, and conspiring, President of the United States of America, and Commander-in-Chief of the Army and Navy thereof; Andrew Johnson, now Vice-president of the United States aforesaid; William H. Seward, Secretary of State of the United States aforesaid; and Ulysses S. Grant, Lieutenant-General of the Army of the United States aforesaid, then in command of the Armies of the United States, under the direction of the said Abraham Lincoln; and in pursuance of and in prosecuting said malicious, unlawful, and traitorous conspiracy aforesaid, and in aid of said rebellion, afterward, to-wit, on the 14th day of April, A. D. 1865, within the Military Department of Washington aforesaid, and within the fortified and intrenched lines of said Military Department, together with said John Wilkes Booth and John H. Surratt, maliciously, unlawfully, and traitorously murdering the said Abraham Lincoln, then President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, as aforesaid; and maliciously, unlawfully, and traitorously assaulting, with intent to kill and murder, the said William H. Seward, then Secretary of State of the United States, as aforesaid; and lying in wait with intent maliciously, unlawfully, and traitorously to kill and murder the said Andrew Johnson, then being Vice-President of the United States; and the said Ulysses S. Grant, then being Lieutenant-General, and in command of the Armies of the United States, as aforesaid.
U.S. Const, Art 4, Sec 4
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.
There is a quote of -YOU-.
-YOU- were the one laughing at hundreds of thousands of KIA.
What are you laughing about? 110,070 Union combat deaths? 249,458 other Union deaths? 275,175 Union wounded? 634,703 Union casualties?
Perhaps 74,524 Confederate combat deaths make you laugh? 124,000 other Confederate deaths? 137,000 Confederate wounded? 335,524 Confederate casualties?
Perhaps a combined 970,227 American casualties makes you laugh.
Precisely how many heaped, dead bodies would satisfy you and The Lincoln?
COMBAT DEATHS
Union 110,070 Confederate 74,524 Combined 184,594
Casualties
Enrolled Combat Other Wounded Total
Union 2,803.3 110,070 249,458 275,175 634,703
Confederate 1,064.2 74,524 124,000 137,000 + 335,524
Combined 3,867.5 184,594 373,458 412,175 + 970,227
Combat deaths refers to troops killed in action or dead of wounds. Other includes deaths from disease, privation, and accidents, and includes losses among prisoners of war. Wounded excludes those who died of their wounds, who are included under Combat Deaths. Ratio is the proportion of wounded in action to combat deaths. Note that the wounded figures do not include cases of disease. Under Percentages, KIA refers to the percent of those enrolled killed in action, Dead to the percent dead from all causes, and Casualty to the percent killed or injured. KIA/Month, killed in action per month, gives a fair indication of the intensity of combat
Notes:
* Non-battle deaths not known for these wars.
+ Confederate non-battle deaths and wounded estimated.
& Actually only six weeks of sustained combat.
^ There was only one month of combat.
Is it not strange that two of the people closest to Lincoln -- Stanton and Mary Todd Lincoln -- had peculiarly constituted, abnormal personalities? It's one thing to imagine Stanton's supervising the dressing of Lincoln's dead body. It's another to imagine him dressing and redressing the body of his first wife, who died in childbirth, until he was satisfied that she looked just as she did seven years before at the marriage altar. "She is my bride and shall be dressed and buried like a bride," said Stanton, who threw her valuable jewelry into her coffin.Stanton also had acted strangely after the death of his young daughter Lucy two years earlier. After she had been buried about a year, he had the remains exhumed, placed them in a metal box made for the purpose, and soldered it shut. He kept the box in his bedroom for a year. This is the same Stanton who unleashed a smear campaign of malicious lies against William T. Sherman; who lied to Lincoln about Thomas T. Eckert’s availability to accompany him to the theater; who used underhanded and illegal tactics to bring about the hanging of Mary Surratt; who barricaded himself inside his office after being fired by President Johnson; and who described Lincoln as a long-armed baboon.
SOURCE: Lincoln and Booth, H. Donald Winkler, 2003, pp. 317-8.
The taking of another life illegally could be classified as murder/homicide (of various degrees), manslaughter, abortion, infanticde, or euthanasia. Illegal sexual contact could be classified as rape or any other the other charges previously listed. What part of 11,834 courts-martial do you not understand? A soldier could face courts-martial if they also murdered their victim, and found guilty if that charge instead.
No exaggeration has been proven, even when a Georgia Justice was hung which you assert did not happen. And I never stated McClellan voters should be shot.
The people deciding the fate of Texas were not elected in the Republican fashion of the rest of the country in violation of Article IV, Section 4. It was a coup.
Let's make this real simple. There were TWO elections. One for delegates to the constitutional convention - they voted to secede.
The second was a vote by the people of Texas - they voted to secede. How is that not "republican"?
There is a quote of -YOU-.
-YOU- were the death-loving Remington Raider laughing at hundreds of thousands of KIA.
What are you laughing about? 110,070 Union combat deaths? 249,458 other Union deaths? 275,175 Union wounded? 634,703 Union casualties?
Perhaps 74,524 Confederate combat deaths make you laugh? 124,000 other Confederate deaths? 137,000 Confederate wounded? 335,524 Confederate casualties?
Perhaps a combined 970,227 American casualties makes you laugh.
Precisely how many heaped, dead bodies would satisfy you and The Lincoln?
COMBAT DEATHS
Union 110,070 Confederate 74,524 Combined 184,594
Casualties
Enrolled Combat Other Wounded Total
Union 2,803.3 110,070 249,458 275,175 634,703
Confederate 1,064.2 74,524 124,000 137,000 + 335,524
Combined 3,867.5 184,594 373,458 412,175 + 970,227
Combat deaths refers to troops killed in action or dead of wounds. Other includes deaths from disease, privation, and accidents, and includes losses among prisoners of war. Wounded excludes those who died of their wounds, who are included under Combat Deaths. Ratio is the proportion of wounded in action to combat deaths. Note that the wounded figures do not include cases of disease. Under Percentages, KIA refers to the percent of those enrolled killed in action, Dead to the percent dead from all causes, and Casualty to the percent killed or injured. KIA/Month, killed in action per month, gives a fair indication of the intensity of combat
Notes:
* Non-battle deaths not known for these wars.
+ Confederate non-battle deaths and wounded estimated.
& Actually only six weeks of sustained combat.
^ There was only one month of combat.
Who were the Japanese fighting? They were HIDING. The last battle (as in WAR) was 12/13 May 1865, which was long after Lincoln was dead. Union Col. Theodore H. Barrett led some 500 men in defeat by attacking forces led by Confederate Col. John S. "Rip" Ford. The last offocial battle of the war was a Confederate victory.
You love these murdererous assassins so much, is Hinckley also a hero of yours? Squeaky Fromme?
You love to project your fantasies! Both are detesable for attempting to assassinate Presidents Gerald Ford and Ronald W. Reagan.
They used the term "rape" in their courts martial and 350 is all you have documented for the whole war.
No exaggeration has been proven, even when a Georgia Justice was hung which you assert did not happen.
I don't know many hanging survivors so his story definitely doesn't ring true. I'd imagine he was as prone to exaggeration as you.
And I never stated McClellan voters should be shot.
Glad to see you admit you were exaggerating about that too. It's funny you keep saying "well, they intended to do this, that, and the other" but there's never any actual deeds that would prove you right. You say they hung a guy but he didn't die. You said voters would be shot but none were. You say there were thousands of rapes by Sherman's men but you can't come up with more than 20.
Let's make this real simple. There were TWO elections. One for delegates to the constitutional convention - they voted to secede.
They were not elected in due process and they should not have been directly jerking the state of Texas around. It was not republicanism, it was thuggery.
The second was a vote by the people of Texas - they voted to secede. How is that not "republican"?
Saddam got 100% of the vote too. Leaders are to be elected, not given power through thuggery. If The Democrats win the Senate and the House this year and Daschle decided that it's be easier to just give the gavels to Alec Baldwin in Hollywood and have conventions in Hollywood to run the country so the Teamsters can guard the convention halls to keep dissenting Republicans out of the process to pass all the self-serving laws they can come up with, would you consider it legitimate? I didn't think so. That's what was done in Texas. It's a violation of Article IV Section 4, the citizens were robbed of their right to republicanism. Why do you think it was decided to secede in an illegitimate convention hall rather than the statehouse?
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