On the Freedom of the Will: Part II: Section I (Refuting Arminian Free-Willism)

CCEL ^ | 1754 | Jonathan Edwards

[Ephesians210]

Re:No, more in relation to the fact that you lumped Calvin, Arminius, Billy Graham, et al. in with him.

It might make things easier if you had noticed that I was quoting another poster(the italics should be a hint), who "lumped" Joseph Smith in with the others, and not I.

[Ephesians210]

Correction, the "Re" in front of the "quote", should signify to a "Grammerian", that I was responding in reference to the quote following the "Re", made by the poster to whom I addressed the response. LOL

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Ephsians210 wasn't "lumping them together."

Earlier A-G repeated that she does not follow the creeds of any man, and listed those names among them. (See her initial posts on this thread.)

[betty boop]

Less than a bottle of Glenlivet, but more than a sip of Macallan. 8~)

LOL!!! :^)

[marron]

I have been ruminating on this subject. Its not one that is easy to explain to people without their eyes starting to glaze over, though, the way that folk culture carries higher values embedded within itself, and can transmit those values, how people can come to confuse the two (the culture and the values), and how people who reject those values can do so by focusing on the culture itself in a kind of sleight of hand. People who believe in those values can be easily taken in, in this way. The exagerated focus on the culture can be a way of separating people from the very values that make the culture worthy in the first place.

Politicians do this all the time, not necessarily for evil purposes, but people who hate the higher values will wrap themselves in the cultural symbols and it deflects the natural rejection people would normally otherwise feel toward them. Its sort of like the leftist who becomes an expert on hand-made banjos, or the leftist who becomes an expert on baseball trivia, or affects a Texas drawl. Or the fascist who elevates the culture while separating it from God in any way possible, like Mussolini consciously focusing on pre-Christian Rome rather than what came after.

It is easily done because most people derive their understanding of the higher values from the culture itself, and tend to conflate the two. It is easy, then, to see the culture itself as the source of whatever is noble in us, rather than simply the medium of transmittal. Once you have made this mistake it is easy to fall into a kind of fascism, or fall for someone who opposes what you believe in, but wraps it in folk symbols.

[The Grammarian]

I had noticed that it was A-G who originally 'lumped them together,' but it was in reference to your not singling Jos. Smith out from the rest of the names that I took it to mean that you were blanket-condemning the lot of them. My apologies if that wasn't your intent.

[The Grammarian]

Also, Dr.E, I won't have time to respond to your FReepmail until later tonight, but I'll get to it when I can.

[betty boop]

...the way that folk culture carries higher values embedded within itself, and can transmit those values, how people can come to confuse the two (the culture and the values), and how people who reject those values can do so by focusing on the culture itself in a kind of sleight of hand.

Excellent analysis, marron! A classic example of this sort of thing is what Hitler did with the ancient lore of the German Volk, all shined up and made vivid to the imagination by Wagner a few decades earlier. The values of the ancient traditions were totally submerged in Hitler's brilliantly successful attempt to make German "folk culture" come alive in the German collective conciousness...with the result that truly horrific things could occur in one of the great Christian nations of Europe.

[Ephesians210]

Re: I had noticed that it was A-G who originally 'lumped them together,' but it was in reference to your not singling Jos. Smith out from the rest of the names that I took it to mean that you were blanket-condemning the lot of them. My apologies if that wasn't your intent.

But I did single out Joseph Smith. Sheesh.

Apology accepted.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

As God wills.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The Germans were never Romanized; a double-edged sword, according to Monty Python. 8~)

[bondserv]

He does not have to wait on man to decide His next move and then be concerned that even that plan may not work if fickle man changes his mind again. This world is not a guessing game where God keeps his fingers crossed that man makes the right decision :>)

I say this with a smile on my face and no ill feelings toward you. Thank you for responding.:-)

Consider the Son of God who is outside time (inhabiting eternity) knowing all things that will happen, who then enters our time domain and reveals that He knows not the day or the hour.

Then consider the fact that Jesus set aside His "inhabiting eternity" to take on flesh and relate to us as a man. The Father, while Jesus was in the flesh revealed all things to His Son from eternity except the day or the hour of His second coming. This is a perfect example of how a man must rely on the Father in heaven for all good things; Jesus chose to limit Himself to that same condition. Jesus' perfect communion with God made Him superior to any other man who ever lived. Sinless and Blameless literally.

Jesus asked the Father in Gethsemane if there were any other way. If pure Calvinism were true, this would be play-acting by the Creator of the universe. I contend it was not. Jesus glorified the Father in heaven, and relied on the Father completely in His incarnate state and agreed to do the Fathers will.

Unfortunately, Calvinism clouds the waters of the example Jesus displayed of being empowered by the Father to lay down our wills, in order to do the Father's Will. Jesus was sinless not because He didn't sin (which He didn't), but because He perfectly did the Fathers Will on earth.

I do not believe it is correct to say He sees us as sinless. If He did there would be no reason for us to repent when we sin.

Realization of His love for us leads us to repentance. Abiding in Christ disables a person from denying Christ's love, leaving us no longer a slave to sin. The regenerate heart enters into a mutual sanctification process with God, blessing both Him and us.

1. Calvinists have to deny the omniscience of Jesus. The Bible teaches things are different in our time domain than in eternity, therefore Jesus can chose to lay aside His omniscience to enter His created time domain (not knowing the day or hour).

2. Calvinists need not share the gospel with all the creatures of the world. The Bible teaches that as mud and wax respond differently to the light of God, one hardening the other softening, we can respond differently to the Holy Spirit's promptings in our life (prior to belief in Christ). If you chose to resist God as Pharaoh did, God will oblige you and turn up the heat to quicker harden your heart. If you chose to seek Him, His light will soften you toward repentance.

3. Calvinists believe God chooses you or does not choose you. The Bible teaches God will pursue you, but there comes a time where He gives you over to your flesh. Over and over in the Bible people make a choice against God and He gives them over. The Rich young ruler saddened Jesus, Judas was called friend till the end as Jesus continued to reach out to him, forgive them Father for they know not what they do... all foolishness without personal choice.

Salvation is a free gift that can be taken away by no man, nor achieved by any man, otherwise we could boast. Only those who freely submit to God's Will receive spiritual treasure in heaven. Again no chance to boast, all good things come from the Father in heaven.

Clearly God is sovereign and involved with every minuet detail in our universe, but this goes to the Free-Will argument, for He is a personal God He persuades us of His love by exhibiting it to us moment by moment. He is also powerful enough to take the threads of every decision His free-will creatures make (Imagine the branching of possibilities) and "CAUSES all things for the good of those that love Him AND ARE CALLED ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSES".

"Causes" is a present tense word (from our perspective), not a past tense. He is intimately involved, to the minutest degree, with His creation. Praise Jesus Christ our savior.

[The Grammarian]

There are a couple of links on my homepage to various articles I've posted disputing whether "eternity" is timelessness or everlasting time. In particular, look at "The Eternity of God" and "Watson on the Duration of Eternity."

[bondserv]

There are a couple of links on my homepage to various articles I've posted disputing whether "eternity" is timelessness or everlasting time. In particular, look at "The Eternity of God" and "Watson on the Duration of Eternity."

Many thanks my friend. I scanned "The Eternity of God" article and found it very interesting. I look forward to perusing the other articles as well. These are well written, well thought out treatises on the subject (unlike my mishmash of ideas sloppily thrown together).

To find the articles, go to Grammarians profile page and choose links.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you for your posts! And welcome to Free Republic!

Scripture, even the words of Christ stand in direct contradiction to that statement [”On the other hand, I would that everyone would err on the side of caution and not characterize the source of another’s Spiritual understanding”]. Jesus, Paul, John, Peter and Jude were adamant about characterizing the source of another's "spiritual understanding" when those understandings are false and antichirst, even to call them "doctrines of demons".

Jesus is the Word of God made flesh and speaks with full authority. (John 1:14) Paul, John, Peter and Jude were speaking with direct authority; their epistles are part of our canon of Scripture. I recognize no man born since their time as speaking with the same authority. In that list I include all the Popes, councils, early church fathers and saints, Martin Luther, Calvin, Arminius, Joseph Smith, evangelists, preachers and commentators.

My caution about characterizing the source of another’s Spiritual understanding is based on the following Scripture:

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. – Jude 9-10

But when the Pharisees heard [it], they said, This [fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils…. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come. – Matthew 12:24 through and ending with 31-32

Chapter 12 in both Mark and Luke contain that same caution, thus my assertion that it is better to err on the side of caution and not characterize another's source of Spiritual understanding. It is enough to question the source, going the extra step to characterize is unnecessary. My two cents...

So, you do not judge Joseph Smith to have been a false prophet?

I do not judge Joseph Smith at all. I judge no being – whether alive in the flesh or in the spirit, whether man or principality.

IN John 7:24, Jesus makes it plain that His sheep are to "judge", but to judge not by mere appearances, but instead to judge in accordance with a right standard. John 7:24, "When you judge, do not judge by appearances, but judge with righteous judgment." What do you suppose the right standard is?

I turn to the Scriptures for the standard of righteous judgment:

The first is to not judge, lest I be judged:

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. – Matthew 7:1-2

The second is to beware of false prophets, to know them by their fruits.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? – Matthew 7:15-16

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. – Galatians 5:22-23

The third, is to judge “matters” or “things” in this life. Judgment of angels (beings) is authority reserved for the next life:

Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? - I Corinthians 6:1-3

IOW, I judge the “thing” not the person, the assertion not the speaker. If there is Truth in the assertion, the Spirit within me confirms it and brings Scripture to mind. Likewise, I listen to counsel from Christians when I know the Spirit indwells the counselor. The Spirit brings forth the fruits named in Galatians 5:22-23 if the Christian is surrendered to His will. If he is not surrendered to His will, I cannot embrace the advise.

My bottom line:

I choose to love God absolutely and others, unconditionally. (Matthew 22:37-40)

I choose to not judge any being. (Matthew 7:1-2)

I choose to forgive without demanding an apology or vindication first (Mark 11:26).

The Holy Spirit has gifted all of us to a purpose in the body of Christ (I Corinthians 12). Some engage in spiritual warfare, others run the race, others evangelize, preach, care for the sheep and so forth.

All of these are noble service, but I have chosen instead to sit at Christ’s feet and hear the Word of God.

Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.

And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. – Luke 10:38-42

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the additional insight with regard to Dr. Grandpierre!

drstevej, just to underline what betty boop said, I consider her to be my sister in Christ!

[betty boop]

Q.: So, you do not judge Joseph Smith to have been a false prophet?

A.: I do not judge Joseph Smith at all.

Seems to me the best thing is to leave the judgment to God.

[Ephesians210]

Re: Q.: So, you do not judge Joseph Smith to have been a false prophet?

A.: I do not judge Joseph Smith at all.

Seems to me the best thing is to leave the judgment to God.

God has already judged Joseph Smith and so do we, following the command of God to judge false prophets. By not judging false prophets and standing against their false doctrines, you do violence to the Cross.

[Ephesians210]

Re: I choose to love God absolutely and others, unconditionally. (Matthew 22:37-40)

No you don't. You don't love God's people or else you would not take the unBiblical stance of not pointing out false prophets and false teachers, exposing them and warning God's people about them.

Jeremiah 5 30"An astonishing and horrible thing
Has been committed in the land:
31The prophets prophesy falsely,
And the priests rule by their own power;
And My people love to have it so.
But what will you do in the end?

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Jeremiah 14 13Then I said, "Ah, Lord GOD! Behold, the prophets say to them, "You shall not see the sword, nor shall you have famine, but I will give you assured peace in this place."' 14And the LORD said to me, "The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart. 15Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the prophets who prophesy in My name, whom I did not send, and who say, "Sword and famine shall not be in this land'--"By sword and famine those prophets shall be consumed!

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Jeremiah 23
1 "Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!" says the LORD. 2Therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel against the shepherds who feed My people: "You have scattered My flock, driven them away, and not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your doings," says the LORD.

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Matthew 7;

(1) 15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
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In order to "know them by their fruits", you have to first "judge" their fruit.

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Matthew 24
10And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
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In order to make yourself appear to be "good", "sweet" and "nice" in the eyes of men, you fail to judge rightly as Jesus commands in John 7:24. Your "love" is cold towards God's people. Woe unto you for seeking to please men and not God.

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Luke 6
25Woe to you who are full,
For you shall hunger.
Woe to you who laugh now,
For you shall mourn and weep.
26Woe to you[1] when all[2] men speak well of you, For so did their fathers to the false prophets.
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No, you err, not on caution, but to make yourself seem to be "good", in the eyes of men. Woe unto you!

[betty boop]

God has already judged Joseph Smith and so do we....

I don't know, Ephesians210, but I have great difficulty understanding this attitude. God calls us to love one another, not to judge one another. How do you know that God has already judged Joseph Smith? Do you understand your wisdom to be greater than the Lord's? I say, leave the issue to Him; for Joseph Smith is as much His child as you or I. God is Father to all men. It seems to me the judgment of the son is most properly left to the Father Himself.

My understanding is there is only one unforgiveable sin, and that is to sin against the Holy Spirit, which is Love. FWIW.