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To: Ephesians210; xzins; betty boop
Thank you for your posts! And welcome to Free Republic!

Scripture, even the words of Christ stand in direct contradiction to that statement [”On the other hand, I would that everyone would err on the side of caution and not characterize the source of another’s Spiritual understanding”]. Jesus, Paul, John, Peter and Jude were adamant about characterizing the source of another's "spiritual understanding" when those understandings are false and antichirst, even to call them "doctrines of demons".

Jesus is the Word of God made flesh and speaks with full authority. (John 1:14) Paul, John, Peter and Jude were speaking with direct authority; their epistles are part of our canon of Scripture. I recognize no man born since their time as speaking with the same authority. In that list I include all the Popes, councils, early church fathers and saints, Martin Luther, Calvin, Arminius, Joseph Smith, evangelists, preachers and commentators.

My caution about characterizing the source of another’s Spiritual understanding is based on the following Scripture:

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. – Jude 9-10

But when the Pharisees heard [it], they said, This [fellow] doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils…. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come. – Matthew 12:24 through and ending with 31-32

Chapter 12 in both Mark and Luke contain that same caution, thus my assertion that it is better to err on the side of caution and not characterize another's source of Spiritual understanding. It is enough to question the source, going the extra step to characterize is unnecessary. My two cents...

So, you do not judge Joseph Smith to have been a false prophet?

I do not judge Joseph Smith at all. I judge no being – whether alive in the flesh or in the spirit, whether man or principality.

IN John 7:24, Jesus makes it plain that His sheep are to "judge", but to judge not by mere appearances, but instead to judge in accordance with a right standard. John 7:24, "When you judge, do not judge by appearances, but judge with righteous judgment." What do you suppose the right standard is?

I turn to the Scriptures for the standard of righteous judgment:

The first is to not judge, lest I be judged:

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. – Matthew 7:1-2

The second is to beware of false prophets, to know them by their fruits.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? – Matthew 7:15-16

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. – Galatians 5:22-23

The third, is to judge “matters” or “things” in this life. Judgment of angels (beings) is authority reserved for the next life:

Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? - I Corinthians 6:1-3

IOW, I judge the “thing” not the person, the assertion not the speaker. If there is Truth in the assertion, the Spirit within me confirms it and brings Scripture to mind. Likewise, I listen to counsel from Christians when I know the Spirit indwells the counselor. The Spirit brings forth the fruits named in Galatians 5:22-23 if the Christian is surrendered to His will. If he is not surrendered to His will, I cannot embrace the advise.

My bottom line:

I choose to love God absolutely and others, unconditionally. (Matthew 22:37-40)

I choose to not judge any being. (Matthew 7:1-2)

I choose to forgive without demanding an apology or vindication first (Mark 11:26).

The Holy Spirit has gifted all of us to a purpose in the body of Christ (I Corinthians 12). Some engage in spiritual warfare, others run the race, others evangelize, preach, care for the sheep and so forth.

All of these are noble service, but I have chosen instead to sit at Christ’s feet and hear the Word of God.

Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.

And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. – Luke 10:38-42


915 posted on 02/16/2004 10:00:21 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; marron; unspun; lockeliberty; Ephesians210; xzins; betty boop
Q.: So, you do not judge Joseph Smith to have been a false prophet?

A.: I do not judge Joseph Smith at all.

Seems to me the best thing is to leave the judgment to God.

917 posted on 02/17/2004 6:40:01 AM PST by betty boop (God used beautiful mathematics in creating the world. -- Paul Dirac)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Re: I choose to love God absolutely and others, unconditionally. (Matthew 22:37-40)

No you don't. You don't love God's people or else you would not take the unBiblical stance of not pointing out false prophets and false teachers, exposing them and warning God's people about them.

Jeremiah 5 30"An astonishing and horrible thing
Has been committed in the land:
31The prophets prophesy falsely,
And the priests rule by their own power;
And My people love to have it so.
But what will you do in the end?

==============================

Jeremiah 14 13Then I said, "Ah, Lord GOD! Behold, the prophets say to them, "You shall not see the sword, nor shall you have famine, but I will give you assured peace in this place."' 14And the LORD said to me, "The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart. 15Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the prophets who prophesy in My name, whom I did not send, and who say, "Sword and famine shall not be in this land'--"By sword and famine those prophets shall be consumed!

==================================

Jeremiah 23
1 "Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!" says the LORD. 2Therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel against the shepherds who feed My people: "You have scattered My flock, driven them away, and not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your doings," says the LORD.

====================================

Matthew 7;

(1) 15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
=====================================
In order to "know them by their fruits", you have to first "judge" their fruit.

======================================

Matthew 24
10And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.
=================================
In order to make yourself appear to be "good", "sweet" and "nice" in the eyes of men, you fail to judge rightly as Jesus commands in John 7:24. Your "love" is cold towards God's people. Woe unto you for seeking to please men and not God.

==============================

Luke 6
25Woe to you who are full,
For you shall hunger.
Woe to you who laugh now,
For you shall mourn and weep.
26Woe to you[1] when all[2] men speak well of you, For so did their fathers to the false prophets.
=====================================
No, you err, not on caution, but to make yourself seem to be "good", in the eyes of men. Woe unto you!

919 posted on 02/17/2004 7:13:46 AM PST by Ephesians210
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To: Alamo-Girl
Re: The first is to not judge, lest I be judged:

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. – Matthew 7:1-2

That is one of the most misused and taken out of context passages in all of Scripture.

Why didn't you post the entire passage? If you had, you might see the context.

Matthew 7:
1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
6"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.

===============================
Jesus is not making a prohibition against judging, the prohibition is against hypocritical judging. Notice that Jesus ends that passage with a command to make a judgment, by commanding that what is holy not be given to the dogs and swine. That command cannot be followed unless one makes a determination(judgment) of who are dogs and swine.

==================================

1 John 4
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
==============================

That is an expressed command to make judgments concerning false prophets, yet you disregard all of Scripture that commands those judgments be made, acting as if God's Word contradicts itself, picking passages out of context of the entirety of God's Word that seem to agree with your own feelings, so you can appear to be pius. Woe unto you.

921 posted on 02/17/2004 7:30:40 AM PST by Ephesians210
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