VANITY - Gross or Net? If you tithe - on which do you tithe?

5/23/2003 | Frapster

[Frapster]

Pardon the vanity folks but my wife and I were debating an issue about tithing. We are both committed Christians but we were debating whether it was correct to tithe on the gross or the net? And not just in terms of personal income but in terms of a business. If we own a company that is grossing a certain amount do we tithe on the gross of that amount or the net (what we pay ourselves?)

[safisoft]

Tithing was part of the burden of the law. Christ is the total liberation from all aspects of the law.

So, do you think that He also "threw out" the instructions against bestiality, incest, rape, etc. - or just some of them? How about the "10 Commandments"? Gone? Assuming some standards for morality still exist, who decides which of the "Old Testament" laws are still in effect, and which have been "done away with". If you will go back and read a little church history you will find who made the decisions, and shaped the lawless theology that so many blindly follow today believing that "Grace" is a "New Testament" thing instead of understanding that grace and faith have ALWAYS been the way that God drew men and women to Himself. And that the "Law" is not absent of grace, but FULL of it - it is the very motivation for His commands. Man's misuse of the "Law" (that is trying to EARN God's acceptance) does not mean that God no longer has standards that His people should DELIGHT to follow.

Recently many used the phrase, "What Would Jesus Do?" to quantify a WALK that was consistent with the way Jesus walked. Let me challenge you to go and read the Gospels (especially John) and then ask the question, "What Did Y'shua Do?". He kept the "Law" - He DELIGHTED in the "Law" (all the while castigating those who ABUSED the purpose of the Law such as the Pharisees etc.). He kept it. Don't you want to walk like Him. I do. I want to read what He read. I want to talk like He talked. I want to love like He loved. I want to eat like He ate. I want to LIVE like He lived. I want to live like He LIVES. One day, all believers will gather in Jerusalem each year to celebrate Sukkot ("Feast of Tabernacles"). It will be joyous. It will be the best times. It will be a commandment - from the LAW (Leviticus 23). We won't say, "Jesus fulfilled this and freed us from the BURDEN" - will will instead likely say, "Thank-you for the JOY of knowing and practicing that you have come and "tabernacled" among us!" Read Zech 14 - you will see it there.

[kcordell]

Net

Net would be my guess too. It's hard to give 10% of money you never received.

[Malcolm]

I tithe on the gross; 10 percent of your increase, which is all of it. By the other side's thinking, you could not stop at taxes. What about after bills, or spreadin' around money? The cheapness of the saints, how to cut every corner possible, never ceases to amaze me.....

[Gil4]

Tithing in the New Testament is found in Heb. 7:8 as here men that die receive tithes, but there Jesus receives them, as a witness.

You might want to go back and re-read tht section in Hebrews - it's contrasting the Levites and Melchizedek, not Jesus. Melchizedek received tihes from Abraham (and by extension, from Levi through Abraham, "for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him. (v. 10)" NKJV Therefore the priesthood of Melchizedek was superior to that of the Levites, and Jesus is a "priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." (Heb 7:17, Psalm 110:4)

It is a major reach to say this says anything about tithing in NT times.

[nmh]

It's gross, before taxes. In the Old Testament it was gross and I believe it was 10%. In the New Testament it's not so specific. Give what you can afford.

[alisasny]

The "mega-church" of today is an embarrassment of riches.

Yes indeed, our diocese had a slush fund to silence poor children abused by priests to the tune of 10 million! While some priests have spoken out against the Catholic church in my area mostly you only hear from accused priests defending themselves and an occasional good Priest who is indeed a true conservative and condemns the bad ones which is rare in my opinion and only heard by those lucky enough to be as his mass any given Sunday. Do you know they no longer tell us which Priest is saying which mass (not all parishes but most) because people, if they know in advance avoid the bad ones like the plague. One of my cousins is a nun and she also is a principal for a Catholic Elementary school. She speaks often about how pampared the priests are how the nuns are given the scrap s. May sound harsh but basically our "tithing" is providing many selfish priests with an abundance of excess goods. Not uncommon for a priest to have a wine cellar for when he has company. Another example would be building a new church. Why do they need all new items for the church? Why are the old chalaces and such no longer worthy? Didn't former parishioners donate and tithe to buy said items only to have them passed on when its time to build the mega church? My mon in laws church was rebuilt in 92. The collection process disgusted me. They wanted every parisioner to basically agree to donate a fixed amount over time. It did not matter if you donated as many hours to the parish as my inlaws did. The bottom line was we need the money. My in laws are not wealthy in any way but they struggled to pay that monthly payment. It really turned me off. How alarming to find out that Giuliani's good friend, former Monsignor Placa was an abuser. This is where our tithe money went. Very sad day.

[nmh]

Ideally the "church" would like it all. ;)

The sensible approach is to give what you can afford. I finally got so turned off by the "church" always having it's hand out that I asked them NOT to call me anymore for "pledges". I informed them it is a private matter between God and I and some weeks I would NOT be able to live up to a "pledge".

I understand why they want a "pledge" - for planning purposes but I don't want to be locked in to a number. When emergencies happen I don't see the church helping me out financially so I have to do so.

[nmh]

"Tithing on the gross makes no sense. How can you tithe on something you never actually had?"

Actually you do "have" it but with or without your approval it was allocated for you courtesy of Uncel Same. They base taxes on your gross.

[billbears]

Thank you. That's what I was thinking but couldn't put it so eloquently.

[DouglasKC]

What Does the Bible Teach About Tithing?

[muggs]

IMO, you would pay on the gross that you pay yourself.

[Tamar1973]

One day, all believers will gather in Jerusalem each year to celebrate Sukkot ("Feast of Tabernacles"). It will be joyous. It will be the best times. It will be a commandment - from the LAW (Leviticus 23). We won't say, "Jesus fulfilled this and freed us from the BURDEN" - will will instead likely say, "Thank-you for the JOY of knowing and practicing that you have come and "tabernacled" among us!" Read Zech 14 - you will see it there.

The bible also says in the Book of Isaiah that from sabbath to sabbath and from new moon to new moon (talk about a forgotten time), G-d's people will gather to worship Him.

I am not sure how the anti-Torah crowd wil be able to fit into the culture of heaven if they refuse to keep HaShem's laws down here?

[FourPeas]

We tithe on our gross income and then round up. Until about ten years ago, I thought we'd never make ends meet if we tithed at all, gross or net. There only seemed to be enough money to pay the bills with very little left over, but almost ten years ago we took a leap of faith. We began tithing on our gross. Since then, the money's always been there when we needed to pay bills, even when it looked bleak. We took the attitude that God would provide and He did.

[FNU LNU]

When we get into whether the tithe (10%) was on gross or income, it was neither. The tithe was commanded of the Jews in the Old Testament, and no one else. It wasn't a tax on income at all. It was a tenth of their crops and herds. The miner didn't give one tenth of his ore, or his income from it. The shop owner didn't give one tenth of his income. The purpose of the tithe (entirely foodstuffs) was to feed the Levitical priesthood, who stored these commodities in the storehouse, a special place in the temple in Jeruslaem.

Though I doubt not the sincerity of those trying to follow the Bible in this regard, non-Jews giving one tenth of their income (either net or gross) to non-Levitical non-priests, who don't store it in the storehouse in the temple aren't following the Bible.

[FourPeas]

Don't behave as though giving is a burden... it's not. It's an opportunity to share in God's work.

A dear man, a retired pastor, whom I greatly respect once commented that his favorite part of the service was the gathering of the tithes and the offerings. It was because it was a time to rejoice in what God has given us and to joyfully give back to the Lord and share in His work. That time of the worship service has never been the same for me.

[FourPeas]

He tells us if we bring the whole tithe (otherwise we rob God), He will throw open the windows of blessing upon you. And, He never lies.

I can testify to that.

[Cinnamon Girl]

I know, that's my point. If your salary is $100,000 a year, you know you don't bring nearly that much home.

[DaughterofEve]

Not to sidetrack your thread, but I would also be interested in what people think so far as, should that initial percentage go to the physical church you attend only, or didn't "the church" have a more widespread meaning?

In other words, if one can give 10%, and gives 5% to the church they attend, and the other 5% directly to charities or individuals in need, is that wrong, and if so, why?

P.S. Someone once told me that Billy Graham said net. Just an FYI. I realize he's not the ultimate source!

[Stefan Stackhouse]

We are not saved by obeying the law (which we can't, not perfectly), but by grace alone though faith alone in Christ alone. The law points us toward our need for Christ.

That being said, however, we still have this life to live. We will live it better and more pleasing to God if we walk within the light of God's wisdom. For this, the Torah is a rich storehouse.

The Torah, that is, NOT the distortions that Pharasaic Rabbinic Judaism were beginning to twist it into even in Jesus's own day. For example, the Torah does not say "eat on two sets of dishes, one for meat and one for dairy, and don't eat both at the same meal." It says "Do not boil a kid in its mother's milk" - period. Something it would not occur to me to do.

With regard to tithing, one must be careful to distinguish those provisions of the Torah that pertained to the civil society of ancient Israel, and thus are only obliquely relevant to us here and now (i.e, pay your taxes, which the NT also explicitly commands), and those more general and universal principles that we would be wise to apply to our own lives. In this case, the principle that we should give generously as we are able, out of our increase, and that the poor should be aided directly to the extent that the opportunity arises and our ability allows.

How much to give? Jesus commended the widow who gave superficially, rather than the Pharisees who scrupulously gave an exactly calcuated 10% of everyting, including mint and rue. Thus, the best answer to the question of how much to give might be: "At what point does the giving start to become a real sacrifice?" For Bill Gates, 10% wouldn't even come close; for the single mother with multiple kids and a minimum wage job, even 1% might hurt.

[Krafty123]

in Judaism, its net (after taxes!)