VANITY - Gross or Net? If you tithe - on which do you tithe?

5/23/2003 | Frapster

[Frapster]

Pardon the vanity folks but my wife and I were debating an issue about tithing. We are both committed Christians but we were debating whether it was correct to tithe on the gross or the net? And not just in terms of personal income but in terms of a business. If we own a company that is grossing a certain amount do we tithe on the gross of that amount or the net (what we pay ourselves?)

[stranger and pilgrim]

Here's how I look at it:

In Moses time, when the 10 percent tithe was established, the church was the only entitiy taking a hit. They weren't paying taxes to another government as far as I know. In Jesus' time they were. He said, render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's. He never really said 10 percent was still the rule or wasn't and he didn't address the tithe before or after taxes issue. He did fault the religious leaders for being really precise on their tithes of mint and cumin but neglecting the weightier matters of the law. -- seems like there was something more important than how much they gave of their "stuff" -- In the early church they sold all they had and gave to the church and they all lived communally. So, clearly there is no solid new testament rule.

As others said, follow your heart. As for me and my house, we figure that the money the government takes is out of our control. We never had it and it's not our choice whether to give it to them or not. It's merely the cost of living in a country that allows us to worship as we see fit. Since I never really had that tax money I don't count it. We give based on what actually hits our bank account.

I don't know about your church but in mine if everyone who was able gave 10 percent of their after tax income the church would have absolutely NO money problems. The issue isn't really whether people give based on before tax or after tax income but rather that they give what their conscience tells them they should.

[Little Bill]

I pay pew money to maintain the family pew, church upkeep, plus a tithe which depends on the previous weeks sermon.

[Pablo64]

I tithe on what I earn, so therefore, I tithe on the gross amount. Just because I have taxes, insurance, etc., taken out of it before I get to spend any doesn't mean I didn't earn it. The gross is what I pay my taxes, insurance, etc., out of, so I feel it is what I should pay my tithe out of. I've heard people reference passages in the Bible that say that you should give God a "tenth of your increase", so I think it should be prayerfully considered before giving, and then once you decide, don't let anyone beat you up over it. The tithe is not a "salvation" issue (i.e., you're not going to hell for lack of or incorrectly tithing). You and God need to work it out.

I will relate to you that at the point in my life that my wife and I decided to be committed to tithing to our church, we were in the worst financial position of our lives. Some months we weren't sure where the rent money was coming from, much less anything else to give at church. Nevertheless, we made the decision that giving 10 percent or keeping it wasn't going to make any real difference in our bills anyway (if I'm already short, a few more bucks wouldn't matter). I will report to you that since we made that "heart" decision, we have never missed paying a bill that needed paid, or missed a rent payment, or a mortgage payment. God didn't just show up with a bucket of cash because we tithed, but somehow I would either get some unexpected overtime, or a small amount of money from a surprise source, or something like that.

It's all God's money anyway (regardless of what the politicians say, LOL!). I figure He blesses me hugely by letting me keep 90 percent!

[Tamar1973]

Don't allow yourself to be pulled by the two testaments. Adhere to the new, if you are a Christian and rejoice in the freedom it gives you from the law of the old testament.

Newsflash: If it wasn't for the Tanak, there would be no "new covenant". So before you throw it out, think about why most x-ian bible publishers put it in their anyway.

[em2vn]

Do you know of a new testament reference for tithing. I sat under pentecostal teaching for thirty years and never heard one new testament reference for tithing, only old testament. It seems hard to drag tithing through the veil that Christ's blood erected between the new and old testament. The unltimate teaching to Christans, the word of Jesus Christ, never mentions tithing, that I am aware of. If it's not in his word it's not to be practiced in the church.

[Cinnamon Girl]

Tithing on the gross makes no sense. How can you tithe on something you never actually had?

[Tamar1973]

Your earthly god already took it's tithe, it's called with holding.

ROTFLOL! And the taxman takes a lot more than 10%. In that light, it seems stingy not to give HaShem His 10%, doesn't it?

[1rudeboy]

How about waiters and waitresses? Should I tip on the pre- or post-tax total?

[Frapster]

After overhead, I don't even have a 10% margin. If I gave 10% of gross to Church, I would have a huge negative net. That's exactly my point. After overhead on our company we have well over 10% of our gross left - we could tithe on 20% of our gross. But my wife thinks I'm getting greedy on God by saying that I should tithe on the net. I think we're the exception to the rule when it comes to how much we gross. Our profit margins are pretty huge.

[tru_degenerate]

the pre-tax total

its cheaper

[Ff--150]

Tithing in the New Testament is found in Heb. 7:8 as here men that die receive tithes, but there Jesus receives them, as a witness. As far as net or gross, I personally wouldn't shortchange God with net.

[candeee]

If you are self-employed, you can choose who to pay first. Otherwise, the gov't takes the money - in effect you never had it in the first place and thus it could not be considered your "first fruits." How can the amounts that go to social security taxes be considered an increase to you? You can not choose to keep it and you never touch it. If you eventually start collecting social security payments, then you would have an increase or first fruits.

[A. Patriot]

Most ministers say to use Gross pay. I tithe on the net. The way I look at it, I have never received that money, (and will probably never benifit from it), so I don't tithe on it. I guess I am a "cash basis" tither rather and an "accrual basis" tither.

I am a volunteer church treasurer and know what everyone gives. If most people would even tithe on the net, the church would be so much better off.

Question to gross tithers:

Do you tithe on unrealized gains on investments?
Do you tithe on the employer paid part of your 401K or other
retirement plan?
Do you tithe on the employer paid part of your Social Security tax, Medicare tax or unemployment tax?

If you do receive future benifit from Social (In)-Security, Do you have to pay a tithe on that portion that you have already tithed on? How do you determine what part of that payment is a return of your money? (LIFO, FIFO,?)

Just something to think about.

A. Patriot, the Christian Accountant. :-)

[Tamar1973]

As for me and my house, we figure that the money the government takes is out of our control. We never had it and it's not our choice whether to give it to them or not.

Yes you do, you vote.

[billbears]

The unltimate teaching to Christans, the word of Jesus Christ, never mentions tithing, that I am aware of. If it's not in his word it's not to be practiced in the church.

So what are we supposed to do with the money? Keep it all?!?

[Teacher317]

It's amazing how many questions of faith can be answered by quoting the Simpsons.

[My2Cents]

Well-summarized.

[Julliardsux]

Net. We only "make" that much on the front-end because it has to account for what we don't actually get. If there were no taxes, instead of earning $100,000 at a job you would earn about $60,000. All salaries would be deflated.

Plus, the church pays no tax. Gross does not actually reflect what you earned or "your fruits." In order to be your fruits, you would have to possess them first. The diff between gross and net is money that was never ours.

However, if they structured taxes differently, and you paid them all in and there was no withholding, then you would have to pay gross - BUT taxes would be a lot less, because people would not elect politicians taking money out of their pocket after it hit that pocket.

[Tamar1973]

I pointed this passage out to a pastor once. He wasn't impressed.

Of course he wasn't. Even pastors succumb to greed sometimes. On top of that, they have replace the biblical feasts (passover, etc.) w/ paganized x-ian feasts like Easter/Ishtar and Christmas/Mirthra day so it's not surprising they would make up their own interpretation of HaShem's word about the tithe as well.

[billbears]

Thank you.

As far as net or gross, I personally wouldn't shortchange God with net.

Good point. However, what if I never see that money? Did it belong to me in the first place? I'm not trying to be argumentative (well maybe a bit LOL) but I'm never understood the net/gross issue. If you asked me, I'd say net, but in practice, it's probably gross :)