Posted on 01/23/2003 6:06:25 PM PST by one2many
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Your continual fibbing amazes me, Walt. Newspaper reports came in constantly after the first year of Morrill about its impact on trade.
Peace feelers between the two governments throughout the ACW apparently have no discussion regarding tariffs whatsoever as a condition of reunion.
You are the one lying about these events and throwing up blue smoke and mirrors to hid the fact that your position is complete nonsense.
Walt
The tariff was in place and with restoration of the union came enforcement of that same tariff. What else is there to say, Walt?
Your position is complete nonsense. It's not supported in the record.
It is substantiated fact that you would not know the true record if it were glued to your forehead. It is therefore possible to conclude that you lack the credentials to evaluate that record's support of another's position as evaluation, by its nature, first requires recognition of its subject. It is therefore logical to conclude that you lack the credentials to make any sort of statement resembling or implying that which you just asserted above.
And your response I quote above can only be seen as an attempt not at honest discussion, but Nazi/Soviet style disinformation.
You have yet to even acknowledge my responses or the facts contained within them, Walt. In order to pass judgment of their status and factual validity, you must first know them to exist and acknowledge that existence by addressing them. You do not do any of these things. It is therefore logical to conclude that you lack the credentials to pass any sort of judgment on them as you do above. Try again.
So according to you arresting a Supreme Court justice was less risky than ignoring him? So why do you think President Lincoln didn't do it? Or rather why didn't Lincoln get mad with Lamont when the warrant wasn't served? According to you that left Lincoln with the less desirable course of ignoring Taney instead of throwing his butt in the slammer.
Sorry Walt, but the act of reunion was not the goal of the south. The Lincoln claimed it as his goal. That claim was unilateral and, for all practical purposes, was The Lincoln's only area upon which he would have anything but violent, bloody warfare. It is therefore absurd to conclude that, by not sharing in that goal of submitting to The Lincoln's unilaterally proclaimed condition for peace, the south had no interest in repealing the tariff.
It does in the U.S. Senate though if the president's party is the one batting! When a senate vote results in the tie, the Vice President casts the deciding vote. Lincoln, the guy pushing the tariff, was president and had a VP that shared his views.
There were a number of protectionists in the north, in any case. There were not enough votes to carry the Morrill tariff if southerners had kept their seats.
As I have just show, that is a fib. You seem to indulge in them habitually. Why is that?
Sorry Walt, but the act of reunion was not the goal of the south.
And yet they agreed to be united. Why was that?
Walt
Cause the guy asking for their "agreement" had a sword held to their necks.
Not necessarily, and I did not say that. I did say that, in the mind of The Lincoln, it is likely that he thought at least for a brief period that it would be less risky. He apparently changed his mind as we all know he eventually responded by ignoring the ruling.
So why do you think President Lincoln didn't do it?
Personally, I think he realized that the political backlash would be worse than simply ignoring Taney's ruling and, being a politically skilled individual, made a calculation to minimize the reaction of his detractors - that meant ignoring the decision.
Which by comparison, Walt, would make you slightly more credible than Bill Clinton, though slightly less than Jesse Jackson. Considering your own political affiliations and beliefs, I would say that you seem to be in the company of your peers.
Cause the guy asking for their "agreement" had a sword held to their necks.
You're squirming around like a rat in a trap.
A lot of things happened before the rebels were willing to resume their allegiance to the lawful government.
And many peace feelers were made. But the discussion always came round to a discussion of slavery.
Tariffs were not an issue.
Walt
Why should you stop speculating now? If you think that someone realized the arrest was over the line then who was it? According to you only President Lincoln and Lamon were in on it. And according to Lamon he was the one who decided not to serve the warrant. If there was a third person giving advice then who was it and why didn't Lamon mention them?
He apparently changed his mind as we all know he eventually responded by ignoring the ruling.
Not according to Lamon. But there are other reasons why I think his tale is suspect. One thing that I think we could agree with is that ordering the arrest of a Supreme Court justice was a stupid idea and President Lincoln was not a stupid man. That in and of itself is the strongest reason why the whole story of the Taney arrest is suspect. Lincoln's actions of proceeding in spite of the Taney ruling was far more prudent than arresting the judge. Why would that be Lincoln's second choice? Arrest him and you have a martyr for the rebels. Ignore him and you have a non-entity. It wouldn't have taken Lincoln two tries to come to that conclusion. After all this is the man that so many southron supporters claim tricked Davis into firing on Sumter. I would imagine you have to be pretty smart to do that. </sarcasm>
Much to the contrary, Walt. I'm pointing out the idiocy of your arguments. Finding yourself unable to recover, you turn to calling names an projecting your own situation onto others.
Like it or not, the south went back into the union at gunpoint. The terms of reentry were settled in a similar fashion.
It never should have come to a fight at all. Shoot at guys from Maine or Michigan over slavery? OR tariffs? It was nuts. But the madness that drove it was down south.
I am going to say this again:
In all the movement towards re-union, there was no mention of adjustments of the tariff as a reason for which the south would agree to acknowledge the primacy of the federal government. As your Mr. Hunter said:
Senator Hunter of VA. During the Negro Soldier Bill debate on March 7, 1865, the SOUTHERN HISTORICAL SOCIETY PAPERS notes him as stating his opinion of the Bill as follows:
"When we had left the old Government he had thought we had gotten rid forever of the slavery agitation....But to his surprise he finds that this Government assumes the power to arm the slaves, which involves also the power of enamcipation....It was regarded as a confession of despair and an abandonment of the ground upon which we had seceded from the old Union. We had insisted that Congress had no right to interfere with slavery, and upon the coming into power of the party who it was known would assume and exercise that power, we seceded....and we vindicated ourselves against the accusations of the abolitionists by asserting that slavery was the best and happiest condition of the negro. Now what does this proposition admit? The right of the central Government to put slaves into the militia, and to emancipate at least so many as shall be placed in the military service. It is a clear claim of the central Government to emancipate the slaves."
"If we are right in passing this measure we were wrong in denying to the old government the right to interfere with the institution of slavery and to emancipate the slaves."
"He now believed....that arming and emancipating the slaves was an abandonment of this contest - an abandonment of the grounds upon which it had been undertaken."
The issue was slavery, not tariffs.
Walt
I thank you, and my Indian ancestors would be proud. However, your flattery aside, I still object to your cruel Lincoln-bashing, your bizarre belief that he never meant what he wrote or said, and that it always meant something besides what he said it did. Using that same sort of schizophrenic reasoning, you probably think Hitler was trying to promote Judaism, or that George Bush is merely a willing pawn of the British Crown in it's illicit drug empire. I wouldn't be surprised if you even thought the Constitution was a "Pact with the Devil", oh wait, you DO. No wonder you consider Mr. Lincoln to be "DIShonest Abe", a pathological liar incapable of either writing or speaking what he really meant. As Lincoln once said: "I fear explanations explanatory of things explained." LOL - That's what your revisionist fraud is, Walt, "explanations explanatory of things explained". If I have to choose between your explanation of what Lincoln meant versus his, I think I'll go with his.
The troops you refer to were the 6th Massachusetts Regiment, one of the first to respond to President Lincoln's call to arms. They were on their way to Washington to defend the capitol. There was no direct rail line through Baltimore, so the troops had to de-rail and move through town to board another train to take them to DC.
I believe both the governor of Maryland and the Mayor of Baltimore were aware of this when they ordered the railroad bridges, and telegraph links to Washington, destroyed.
Jeez, do you actually believe this is the only way a hispanic can get elected governor in Texas? If a hispanic republican ran against a anglo democrat for governor, would you vote for the democrat?
Happily. See the Georgia declaration of causes (one of the four states to do so). It speaks of the tariff over several paragraphs.
I did two seperate word searches on the Geogia declaration and got no matches for "tariff". How come, if tariffs were such an important cause to disunite?
My, my, we are assuming things, aren't we. You are beginning to sound like the Yankee in post 695. (If you are not a Yankee, I apologize for even implying you might be one.)
The person I vote for could be purple for all I care. I voted for a Hispanic for mayor of Houston last city election. He was a Republican and a good guy. I will work for his election for mayor and for higher office if he chooses to run again.
The voting here tends to be along racial lines. This is somewhat similar to the famous 2000 red-blue vote map of the US that was explained as sophisticated urban voters versus dumb country hicks by some but which clearly simply reflected minority versus majority population distributions and voting patterns. Look at the blue counties along the Rio Grande.
Hopefully, Republicans will continue to connect with Hispanic voters. If they don't, then Republicans are doomed in Texas because of the rising Hispanic population and the absolute block voting among blacks.
I believe both the governor of Maryland and the Mayor of Baltimore were aware of this when they ordered the railroad bridges, and telegraph links to Washington, destroyed.
What was it exactly that you believe the governor and mayor were aware of? That the troops involved in the earlier riots were the 6th Massachusetts? That the troops had to de-rail and reboard another train because the train lines didn't connect. That the troops had been going to Washington to defend the capitol?
These were all things known to everyone in the city. How is it that the governor and mayor could not have been aware of them?
My Cherokee/Creek ancestors would be proud as well. I'll take stand watie any day. The Lincoln lied through his teeth and invaded a sovereign country - he did not walk on water as some tend to believe. Dims cannot post any law that the Confederacy broke, only attempt to cast moral aspersions in an attempt to castigate men that held the same beliefs as the founders, and that simply desired to exercise the right to self-government.
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