Posted on 01/23/2003 6:06:25 PM PST by one2many
<!-- a{text-decoration:none} //-->
CONTENT="">
|
|
|
||||
|
||||||
|
|
|||||
|
||||||
|
|
|
||||
|
||||||
|
|
|||||
|
||||||
|
|
|
||||
|
I don't believe Lincoln was a tyrant, but he was not the saint that I was taught all those many years ago back in the Middle Ages. I have a problem with some of his actions and policies, as I've noted above.
If anything, the "Lincoln as Tyrant" articles you object to may actually cause people to rekindle an interest in history, a good thing. I've certainly benefitted and learned from the discussions on these boards. I thank you and others for these discussions.
There is no 'if' to it.
There is no reason in the world that you have a better take on these events than Alexander Stephens.
I posted that list of attempted compromises from late in 1860 before. There is not one word about tariffs.
The Washington Peace Conference met at the Willard Hotel, in Washington, from February 4th, through February 27th, 1861. The conference was convened at the request of the Virginia legislature, but only some of the states sent representatives. Former president John Tyler of Virginia was the presiding officer.
Their proposals were framed as a single amendment of seven sections. In its essence it is very similar to the Crittenden Compromise, although slightly different in wording and some of the details, borrowing a bit from some of the proposals made to the Committee of Thirteen.
The text here is taken from Edward McPherson's Political History of the United States of America during the Great Rebellion, published in 1865, page 68. This book is a treasure trove of period documents and commentary, and I would like to thank Chuck Ten Brink for sending me a photocopy of the relevant text.
Article 13, Sec. 1. In all the present territory of the United States, north of the parallel of 36 degrees 30 minutes of north latitude, involuntary servitude, except in punishment of crime, is prohibited. In all the present Territory south of that line, the status of persons held to involuntary servitude or labor, as it now exists, shall not be changed; nor shall any law be passed by Congress or the Territorial Legislature to hinder or prevent the taking of such persons from any of the States of this Union to said Territory, nor to impair the rights arising from said relation; but the same shall be subject to judicial cognizance in the Federal courts, accoring to the course of the common law. When any territory north or south of said line, within such boundary as Congress may prescribe, shall contain a population equal to that required for a member of Congress, it shall, if its form of government be republican, be admitted into the Union on an equal footing with the original States, with or without slavery, as the constitution of such new State may provide.
Sec. 2. No Territory shall be acquired by the United States, except by discovery and for naval and commercial stations, depots, and transit routes, without the concurrence of a majority of all the Senators from States which allow involuntary servitude, and a majority of all the Senators from States which prohibit that relation; nor shall Territory be acquired by treaty, unless the votes of a majority of the Senators from States from each class of States heretobefore mentioned be cast as a part of the two-thirds majority necessary to the ratification of such treaty.
Sec. 3. Neither the Constitution nor any amendment thereof shall be construed to give Congress power to regulate, abolish, or control, within any State the relation established or recognized by the laws thereof touching persons held to labor or involuntary service therein, nor to interfere with or abolish involuntary service in the District of Columbia without the consent of Maryland and without the consent of the owners, or making the owners who do not consent just compensation; nor the power to interfere with or prohibit Representatives and others from bringing with them to the District of Columbia, retaining, and taking away, persons so held to labor or service; nor the power to interfere with or abolish involuntary service in places under the exclusive jurisdiction of the United States within those States and Territories where the same is established or recognized; nor the power to prohibit the removal or transportation of persons held to labor or involuntary service in any State or Territory of the United States to any other State or Territory thereof where it is established or recognized by law or usage, and the right during transportation, by sea or river, of touching at ports, shores, and landings, and of landing in case of distress, shall exist; but not the right of transit in or through and State or Territory, or of sale or traffic, against the laws thereof. Nor shall Congress have power to authorize any higher rate of taxation on persons held to labor or service than on land. The bringing into the District of Columbia of persons held to labor or service, for sale, or placing them in depots to be afterwards transferred to other places for sale as merchandize, is prohibited.
Sec. 4. The third paragraph of the second section of the fourth article of the Constitution shall not be construed to prevent any of the States, by appropriate legislation, and through the action of their judicial and ministerial officers from enforcing the delivery of fugitives from labor to the person to whom such service or labor is due.
Sec. 5. The foreign slave trade is hereby forever prohibited; and it shall be the duty of Congress to pass laws to prevent the importation of slaves, coolies, or persons held to service or labor, into the United States and the Territories from places beyond the limits thereof.
Sec. 6. The first, third, and fifth sections, together with this section of these amendments and the third paragraph of the second section of the first article of the Constitution, and the third paragraph of the second section of the fourth article thereof, shall not be amended or abolished without the consent of all the States.
Sec. 7. Congress shall provide by law that the United States shall pay to the owner the full value of his fugitive from labor, in all cases when the marshall or other officer, whose duty it was to arrest such fugitive, was prevented from so doing by violence or intimidation from mobs or riotous assemblages, or when, after arrest, such fugitive was rescued by like violence and intimidation, and the owner thereby deprived of the same; and the acceptance of such payment shall preclude the owner from further claim to such fugitive. Congress shall provide by law for securing to the citizens of each State the privileges and immunities of citizens in the several States.
See this website:
hpttp://members.aol.com/jfepperson/peace.html
Walt
You wouldn't recognize hearsay if it was glued to your forehead, Walt. At best, you simply know of the word itself and conveniently use it without meaning to justify things you like and dismiss things that you do not like.
and I've seen Ward Hill Lamon's account compromised by the fact that it is not corroborated.
Brown's account corroborates the fact that word an administration plot to arrest Taney was known.
President Lincoln had no reason to arrest Taney.
Sure he did - it rid him of a pesky judge who was issuing legal rulings on his unconstitutional actions.
But just being the Chief Justice doesn't mean he couldn't commit treason.
Show the treason that Taney committed then.
But there is reason that Robert Toombs had a better take on the events, that being his own proximity to the tariff debate in Washington as a senator. Toombs spoke at length about the morrill tariff and outlined many grievances with it. I've already posted a lengthy excerpt from one of his speeches on that very same issue.
I posted that list of attempted compromises from late in 1860 before. There is not one word about tariffs.
Actually, you posted another list dealing with the constitutional status of the states. As for the compromises themselves, I need only note that The Lincoln intentionally sought to channel them into the slavery issue for political reasons. Henry Adams admitted as much.
The Federal generals didn't seem to have read the 1863 guide for behavior of the Union army in the field. From article 16 of that document, which was issued by Lincoln:
Military necessity does not admit of cruelty -- that is, the infliction of suffering for the sake of suffering or for revenge, nor of maiming or wounding except in fight, nor of torture to extort confessions. It does not admit of the use of poison in any way, nor of the wanton devastation of a district.
The record speaks for itself. Tariff revenue was $2 per person per year in 1860. It is nonsense to suggest that the war was caused or even materially affected by tariff issues. On the other hand, slaves were worth several billion dollars in 1860.
Walt
What is a source for this?
Walt
Actually, you posted another list dealing with the constitutional status of the states.
See #465 in this thread.
Tariffs were not a compelling issue, just as Alexander Stephens suggested.
You will tell any kind of lie.
Walt
The record speaks for itself. Tariff revenue was $2 per person per year in 1860. It is nonsense to suggest that the war was caused or even materially affected by tariff issues. On the other hand, slaves were worth several billion dollars in 1860.
Oops. Wrong subject.
Not only did the rebels take the lead in atrocity, Robert E. Lee refused to exchange black POW's for white in late 1864.
Maybe he thought rebels held by the Union were getting pretty well taken care of. Or maybe he thought slaves and slavery were more important than the lives of his men.
Walt
Yet Taney remained on the court until he died. He issued rulings on a variety of legal issues that came before the court, including Walt's beloved Prize Cases, sometimes ruling for the administration and sometimes against. He never spent one day in jail, was never arrested or detained. He didn't resign or go into hiding. If Lincoln had wanted him arrested or gone then why would Taney have remained on the court?
The state penalties were pretty much death, death, and death for participating in slave insurrections.
Walt
Sorry, Walt. You've got your replies mixed up again. We weren't talking about tariffs.
I'm tempted to ask whether you took your medication today, but I won't.
I didn't know you cared ;o)
Walt: What is a source for this?
The Lieber Code of 1863: Lieber Code
I read somewhere that Lincoln had Lieber write the code so that some justification was provided for the Federal Army's actions in the war. Whether that is true or not, I don't know. It does seem that there is enough wiggle room in the Lieber Code to permit virtually any kind of action by the army. An article saying one thing can be cited against another article saying something else.
What do you expect from a politician? Lincoln was nothing if not a politician.
I guess I was thinking more about California, Texas, and the other western territories purchased or taken from Mexico (which did not permit slavery) that had resident populations. It seems to me the south was forcing slavery on these residents as a condition for entry into the Union.
btw-it appears you know more about the Dred Scott case than you let on.
I'm not sure what you're referring to here, specifically. My impression is that Sherman and others decided to fight their campaigns by living off the countryside, rather than trying to extend and protect supply lines that were subject to attack by cavalry and militias. If a city had military value, say as a fort, then that value had to be destroyed. But I seem to recall that the confederates burned Richmond.
Since you brought up field regulations, would you agree that men in uniform, regardless of race, were entitled the same status when captured?
One of the causes of the war was that the North ignored the Constitution when it came to their obligation to return escaped slaves. You expect Lee to return captured escaped slaves to the North in spite of a prior claim on them from their (former) Southern owners?
Perhaps Lee was smart enough to realize what "Beast" Butler, Federal Commissioner of Exchange, was doing. As I've posted before, "Beast" admitted that he would have found a way to avoid exchanging prisoners even if the South had agreed to exchange captured slaves who had been fighting for the Union Army.
No wonder some enterprising soul put "Beast"'s picture on the bottom of chamber pots.
It doesn't ask kinky questions, does it? :^)
My concern was with the wanton destruction of districts, which was what the North started practicing in 1864, if not earlier. I have no problem with an army living off the countryside. Makes sense, and I'm sure both sides practiced it.
What the Union armies did though went far beyond just living off the countryside. It was district-wide wanton destruction and thus against their own regulations.
My in-laws' parents had seen Sherman's men visit their farms. My in-laws were basically good people, but they hated Sherman with an absolute passion.
If a city had military value, say as a fort, then that value had to be destroyed.
Destruction of forts, yes. Destruction of cities, no. I'm not sure that the many months of bombardment of the civilian part of Charleston by Union batteries was justified.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.