Posted on 01/23/2003 6:06:25 PM PST by one2many
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Much to the contrary. There exists an order in The Lincoln's collected works for the delivery of signal flags for a military purpose during the first week of April 1861. Supporting records pertaining to Anderson's command give a strong indication that the flags were for delivery to the fort in order that they could coordinate militarily after the arrival of his fleet. Additionally the orders to the commanders within that fleet indicate very clearly that a coordinated military effort was to take place in the inevitable event that they were stopped from entering Charleston harbor.
The measley 3-ship re-supply convoy had neither enough firepower on the ships nor enough men to "assert control" over Charleston harbor.
Nonsense. That "re-supply convoy" consisted of three heavily armed warships, plus the Lane which would have joined upon their arrival. The intent of the ships, indicated in the orders to the captains of those vessles, was to coordinate a military exercise of force between themselves and with assistance from the fort's batteries in order to permit them to reach the fort, resupply it, increase its garrison, and drop off ammunition in preparation for its military defense. A coordinated plan of naval intrusion under cover of the Sumter's guns and out of range from most of the mainland forts was perfectly feasible in scope, anticipated by the confederates, and ordered by The Lincoln.
That is consistent with an April 12, 1861 communique to the Montgomery government from Confederate General Beauregard that mentions Fox:
I have intercepted a dispatch, which discloses the fact that Mr. Fox, who had been allowed to visit Major Anderson, on the pledge that his purpose was pacific, employed his opportunity to devise a plan for supplying the fort by force.This plan was adopted by the Government at Washington, and was in progress of execution when the demand was made on Major Anderson.
[signed] G. T. Beauregard
Among others. To put it nicely, you aren't known as the brightest bulb on these threads. Not even among your allies.
My goodness, to think that I would have my mental abilities questioned by the likes of y'all. Whatever will I do now?
Perhaps attempt to educate yourself and refine your skills at argumentation.
You mean like he did at Atlanta when innocent civilians pled before his general Bill Sherman not to loot and burn their city? Or are you talking about his well known willingness to discuss and negotiate POW exchanges?
Lincoln's bedrock position was that there be no expansion of slavery.
It was generally a position of his. It is also a position that he could have achieved had he let the confederacy willingly alienate itself from any access to the territories by seceding peacefully. But the fact that he acted differently indicates there were other motives at play. Among them, his seeming obsession with the collection of revenues seems to be one of these.
He knew slavery would die if it were restricted.
That is interesting speculation on your part, but unfortunately for you it is little more. Call it wishful thinking, delusion, ignorance, or what have you. History indicates very clearly that The Lincoln was perfectly willing to extend slavery indefinately by constitutional amendment if doing so would further his political causes and power.
This plan was adopted by the Government at Washington, and was in progress of execution when the demand was made on Major Anderson.
[signed] G. T. Beauregard
Thank you for posting that document. And Ditto, I direct your attention to it for its relevance to our discussion. I believe you recently suggested that no such plan was attempted.
And Walt is no stranger to un-American things! Here is what he had to say about September 11th:
"All these deaths of U.S. citizens --the death of EVERY U.S. citizen killed by Arab terror in the United States, can be laid directly at the feet of George Bush I." - WhiskeyPapa, 11/15/02
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/786927/posts?page=452#448
And here is what he said when I confronted him on that statement:
"I don't retract any of that." - WhiskeyPapa , 11/26/02
SOURCE: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/796067/posts?page=146#146
Indeed. Fox was a "US Agent" hand picked by Lincoln. He was a former naval officer, and had naval combat experience. He personally devised the plan for the union to bull their way into the harbor and offload troops, guns, and ammunition in direct violation of every pledge made to South Carolina. In one communique he even explained how his plan was based on a European naval battle that faced numerous shore batteries like that in Charleston, and that his plan would work on the same principles. The whole deal was deceit and dishonesty from the onset. South Carolina dealt in good faith, and received treachery in return.
Like the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation were antecedent to the US constitution and speak directly to what our founding fathers envisioned this nation to be. That they would entitle the first document to use the term United States of America to identify our nation the "Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union" , speaks volumes about what they thought of the concept.
A decade later they sought to improve upon the Articles of Confederation with the US Constitution. As the preamble of that great document states "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
That you would scoff at important antecedent portions of our nations founding principles, demonstrates a shallowness in your own understanding and appreciation of american history.
The previous presidents under the AofC are not counted because that government and it's "perpetual" union only lasted about TEN YEARS.
Since you made this statement perhaps you could point to the specific Article of Confederation that deals with executive power.
Yes, I agree. In 1860 this is exactly what you had, a dispute amongst the states in the various sections. At this point I'm suggesting that one or more states could have taken their grievance to the US Supreme Court and obtained a favorable ruling from it on the constitutionality of seccesion. This could of happened even before the newly elected president took office.
Instead, the confederates fired on the US Flag and suffered the consequences.
In any event, here's another snippet from the historical record on that same subject.
" The combined effects of these two tariffs must be to desolate the entire North, to stop its importations, cripple its commerce and turn its capital into another channel; for, although there is specie now lying idle in New York to the amount of nearly forty millions of dollars, and as much more in the other large cities, waiting for an opportunity of investment, it will be soon scattered all over the country, wherever the most available means of using it are presented, and it will be lost to the trade of this city and the other Northern states. There is nothing to be predicted of the combination of results produced by the Northern and Southern tariffs but general ruin to the commerce of the Northern confederacy... The tariff of the South opens its ports upon fair and equitable terms to the manufacturers of foreign countries, which it were folly to suppose will not be eagerly availed of; which the stupid and suicidal tariff just adopted by the Northern Congress imposes excessive and almost prohibitory duties upon the same articles. Thus the combination of abolition fanatics and stockjobbers in Washington has reduced the whole North to the verge of ruin, which nothing can avert unless the administration recognizes the necessity of at once calling an extra session of Congress to repeal the Morrill tariff, and enact such measures as may bring back the seceded States, and reconstruct the Union upon terms of conciliation, justice and right." - The New York Herald, March 19, 1861
The constitutional meeting was called to consider questions of revision to that document, but in the end they replaced the articles with the U.S. Constitution. Its asserted perpetual nature was therefore not perpetual. It ceased and was replaced by the current Constitution.
"However strong a government may be, it cannot easily escape from the consequences of a principle which it has once admitted as the foundation of its constitution. The Union was formed by the voluntary agreement of the states; and these, in uniting together, have not forfeited their sovereignty, nor have they been reduced to the condition of one and the same people. If one of the states chose to withdraw its name from the contract, it would be difficult to disprove its right of doing so, and the Federal government would have no means of maintaining its claims directly, either by force or by right. In order to enable the Federal government easily to conquer the resistance that may be offered to it by any of its subjects, it would be necessary that one or more of them should be specially interested in the existence of the Union, as has frequently been the case in the history of confederations.
If it be supposed that among the states that are united by the federal tie there are some which exclusively enjoy the principal advantages of union, or whose prosperity entirely depends on the duration of that union, it is unquestionable that they will always be ready to support the central government in enforcing the obedience of the others. But the government would then be exerting a force not derived from itself, but from a principle contrary to its nature. States form confederations in order to derive equal advantages from their union; and in the case just alluded to, the Federal government would derive its power from the unequal distribution of those benefits among the states.
If one of the federated states acquires a preponderance sufficiently great to enable it to take exclusive possession of the central authority, it will consider the other states as subject provinces and will cause its own supremacy to be respected under the borrowed name of the sovereignty of the Union. Great things may then be done in the name of the Federal government, but in reality that government will have ceased to exist." - Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, Book I, Chapter 19 (emphasis added)
Even under the circumstances of this possibility, no guarantee existed that Abe Lincoln would honor the ruling. He willfully ignored other court rulings in the same time frame on the grounds that he did not like their outcome, most notably the U.S. Circuit Court ruling in Ex Parte Merryman.
It is also a matter of history that the confederates thoroughly made their case for constitutional secession within the framework of the 1860 government. They did so at length before the Congress.
Instead, the confederates fired on the US Flag and suffered the consequences.
As I have noted previously to you, your reasoning in this statement suffers from severe moral and logical flaws. You chose not to respond previously and this case may be no different, but the issue still remains. By asserting that the south "suffered the consequences" of the actions at Fort Sumter, you imply that what happened over the next four years was a necessary result of that act. It is akin to rationalizing all conscious act, and with it guilt, on the part of the north by asserting little more than "the south made us do it" to justify the brutalities of the war they waged. Much to the contrary, the sins of war committed against the south were not a consequence of Sumter but of the conscious choices of the north to sin in the way they waged that war. As I noted previously, just as is true of the south, The Lincoln had untold many courses of action he could have taken in 1861. The decision of the northern government's reaction to secession was not in southern hands though. That decision, upon which the decision of war and the manner in which that war was to be waged and rested, belonged to The Lincoln. Out of untold many paths ranging from varied scales of war to peace and diplomacy, he chose to pursue the bloodiest one.
Yes, especially considering they did away with it after about ten years. They, unlike you, were able to learn from their mistakes. It was a noble idea in principle, but it just didn't work.
That you would scoff at important antecedent portions of our nations founding principles, demonstrates a shallowness in your own understanding and appreciation of american history.
Wlat, is that you? LOL - I did not "scoff" at any part of our founding principles, I "scoffed" at your deliberate misuse and twisting of the words in those documents to support your own purposes. BTW, I'm starting to think you are Wlat using another screen-name.
Since you made this statement perhaps you could point to the specific Article of Confederation that deals with executive power.
To be correct, I said "president". There were "presidents" under the Articles of Confederation. Look at Article IX (Rights Granted The Federal Government): "The United States in Congress assembled shall have authority to appoint a committee,...to appoint one of their members to preside, provided that no person be allowed to serve in the office of president more than one year in any term of three years" - LOL.
That's completely illogical. They very obviously did not question the constitutionality of secession, therefore they had no "grievance" regarding it's constitutionality to take to the Court. If the States still in the union had a problem about it, then they should have taken it to the Court. The new england states obviously didn't question the constitutionality of secession, they flirted with the idea more than once. It was not a new idea.
Good point. Every State in the union that fielded troops against the Southern States certainly violated that Article.
I must confess it (and some others) had been shown to me by another freeper, 'ovrtaxt'. Walt calling the Constitution that certainly does seem to cast considerable doubt on his alleged position regarding "the union".
I'll just have to learn to live with the disappointment, I guess.
In what way?
What was so galling to many, is NOT that blacks were deemed property (see preceding sentence), it was that the ruling would have allowed the emigration of blacks into the west.
Including the south?
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