Posted on 01/23/2003 6:06:25 PM PST by one2many
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That's nice and all, but it does not make your argument valid. To Davis in 1861 and to Toombs for that matter, it was a prediction. It turned out to be an accurate one later on, but the simple fact that the prediction was made in no way necessitates your conclusion that Davis "knew" it would come true. To suggest so, as I noted, is a non-sequitur.
Put down the hookah, Walt. It's distorting your sense of reality.
I have twice quoted Jefferson on the subject of secession, defined as legal separation of parts of the union on their desire to separate. You have willfully ignored them both. Here it is again though:
"The future inhabitants of the Atlantic & Missipi States will be our sons. We leave them in distinct but bordering establishments. We think we see their happiness in their union, & we wish it. Events may prove it otherwise; and if they see their interest in separation, why should we take side with our Atlantic rather than our Missipi descendants? It is the elder and the younger son differing. God bless them both, & keep them in union, if it be for their good,but separate them, if it be better." - Jefferson, August 12, 1803
You've seen all this before.
Yes Walt, and its still an incoherently selected cut n' paste bonanza that may as well have been achieved by pinning various Jefferson texts to a wall and proceeding to throw darts at them under the shade of a blindfold. Not one of those quotes, Walt, supports anything you claim it to support. They might as well be picked at random from a hat.
History says otherwise. If secession did not emerge until the Calhoun era, talks of legal separation could not predate that era. Yet they do. Therefore both you and The Lincoln are fibbing in your usual fashions.
I suppose that is also why the Harriet Lane waved "no war in Iraq" posters at the Nashville and stuck a giant sunflower in its cannon the day before the battle.
Good for him then. That doesn't make his statement an endorsement of the type of union you espouse though. What Washington said and what you think he said are two different things entirely, Walt. But such is frequently the case for those under the heavy influence of combustable-inspired hallucination.
Its been argued here that Amendment X of the US consitution is the legal mechanism for secession. Do you disagree?
No, not really. That statement implies a collective action of general consensus by the people of the nation. In reality there was sharp division, leading some people to invade the land of other people and proceed to kill them in order to advance their cause and power.
Jefferson Davis put no store in the 10th amendment.
He said the federal government had no right to coerce the states, but said he had the power as president of the so-called CSA to coerce Georgia based on language identical to that of the U.S. Constitution.
Look:
"In reply Jefferson Davis donned the mantle of Hamilton. The Confederate Constitution, he pointed out to [Governor]Brown, gave Congress the power "to raise and support armies" and to "provide for the common defense." It also contained another clause (likewise copied from the U.S. Constitution) empowering Congress to make all laws "necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers." Brown had denied the constitutionality of conscription because the Constitution did not specifically authorize it. This was good Jeffersonian doctrine, sanctified by generations of southern strict constructionists. But in Hamiltonian language, Davis insisted that the "necessary and proper" clause legitimized conscription. No one could doubt the necessity "when our very existance is threatened by armies vastly superior in numbers." Therefore "the true and only test is to enquire whether the law is intended and calculated to carry out the object...if the answer be in the affirmative, the law is constitutional."
--Battle Cry of Freedom, James McPherson P.433
Now, amazingly -- although it is not hard to get a deer in headlights look from neo-rebs, Davis' stand was -very similar- to language in the majority opinion in McCullough v Maryland from 1819.
"The subject is the execution of those great powers on which the welfare of a nation essentially depends. It must have been the intention of those who gave these powers, to insure, as far as human prudence could insure, their beneficial execution. This could not be done by confining their choice of means to such narrow limits as not to leave it in the power of Congress to adopt any which might be appropriate, and which were conducive to the end...to have prescribed the means by which the government, should, in all future times, execute its powers, would have been to change, entirely, the character of the instrument, and give it the properties of a legal code...To have declared, that the best means shal not be used, but those alone, without which the power given would be nugatory...if we apply this principle of construction to any of the powers of the government, we shall find it so pernicious in its operation that we shall be compelled to discard it..."
From McCullough v. Maryland, quoted in "American Constittutional Law" A.T. Mason, et al. ed. 1983 p. 165.
Davis is making the same point Chief Justice Marshall made 40 years before. But Davis ignored the concept --while he was under oath to the U.S. Constitution -- and enforced it once he donned his traitor's garb.
Walt
No, not really. That statement implies a collective action of general consensus by the people of the nation. In reality there was sharp division, leading some people to invade the land of other people and proceed to kill them in order to advance their cause and power.
Not well supported by the facts. What about over 3.5 million slaves? Not only that, over 100,000 men from the so-called seceded states fought for the old flag.
In this connection, consider this:
"The North had a potential manpower superiority of more than three to one (counting only white men) and Union armed forces had an actual superiority of two to one during most of the war. In economic resources and logistical capacity the northern advantage was even greater. Thus, in this explanation, the Confederacy fought against overwhelming odds; its defeat was inevitable.
But this explanation has not satisfied a good many analysts. History is replete with examples of peoples who have won or defended their independence against greater odds: the Netherlands against the Spain of Philip II; Switzerland against the Hapsburg empire; the American rebels of 1776 against mighty Britain; North Vietnam against the United States of 1970. Given the advantages of fighting on the defensive in its own territory with interior lines in which stalemate would be victory against a foe who must invade, conquer, occupy, and destroy the capacity to resist, the odds faced by the South were not formidable.
Rather, as another category of interpretations has it, internal divisions fatally weakened the Confederacy: the state-rights conflict between certain govern on and the Richmond government; the disaffection of non-slaveholders from a rich man's war and poor man's fight; libertarian opposition to necessary measures such as conscription and the suspension of habeas corpus; the lukewarm commitment to the Confederacy by quondam Whigs and unionists; the disloyalty of slaves who defected to the enemy whenever they had a chance; growing doubts among slaveowners themselves about the justice of their peculiar institution and their cause. "So the Confederacy succumbed to internal rather than external causes," according to numerous historians. The South suffered from a "weakness in morale," a "loss of the will to fight." The Confederacy did not lack "the means to continue the struggle," but "the will to do so." --BCF, P. 855
His sources:
Richard E. Beringer, Herman Hattaway, Archer Jones, and William N. Still jr., Why the South Lost the Civil War (Athens, Ga., 1986), 439, 5S; Kenneth M. Stampp, The Imperiled Union: Essays on the Background of the Civil War (New York, 1980),255 Clement Eaton, A History of the Southern Confederacy (Collier Books ed., New York, 1961), 250
My emphasis
Walt
Good for him then.
Are you sure? After all, George Washington urged an "immovable attachment" to the national union.
Walt
They could be. They all support the same thing -- an immovable attachment to the national union.
Your quote from TJ, on the other hand, says not a word about the legality of secession under U.S. law, and you won't get Jefferson or any framer to say that.
Walt
Speaking of 1984, Walt, it is evident that you have become quite skilled at that very same artform.
600,000 corpses show you are wrong.
What about over 3.5 million slaves?
What about them then? They assumed various roles in the conflict among a heavily divided population where nothing near the consensus or collective action you suggest existed.
To put it in other words, Walt, if what you say is true, there would not have been a war.
Oh I don't know. A lot of people who believe what Southerners did, that government had violated its contract with the governed
sound familiar?
A feeling of "immovable attachment" is not the same as destruction bent political achievement by coercion, Walt. You are claiming horse chestnuts as chestnut horsed again.
Considering that they lack the connection to establish any coherent link between them, no. Not really. They are no better than a collection assembled by the dart board.
They all support the same thing -- an immovable attachment to the national union.
No. Not really. You are converting horse chestnuts into chestnut horses again, Walt.
Your quote from TJ, on the other hand, says not a word about the legality of secession under U.S. law
But it does say several words about the possibility of a legitimate unilateral separation and indicates Jefferson's own tolerance for such an event in a particular case. That's a heck of a lot more for secession than any one of your quotes indicates against it.
LOL - There is everything in that paper I quoted to suggest that secession was legal. Your comprehension skills are worsening. The quote references the FACT that the 'union' was created with the condition that States reserved the right to reassume the powers ceded to the 'union'. If the union declared they could not do that after the fact of joining, then it was a fraudulent agreement and therefore VOID. Either it was legal under U.S. law, or there was no U.S. law. You are trying to void the entire union from it's inception, Wlat. ROFLMAO. All the Southern States wanted to do was leave it, but you're trying to VOID the entire thing. What a great enemy of the union you are! Is that why you called the Constitution a "Pact With The Devil"? Maybe you bear watching by Mr. Ashcroft as a potential 'enemy of the state'.
The Militia Act of 1792, as amended in 1795 requires that U.S. law operate in all the states.
The Judiciary Act of 1789 requires that "controversies of a civil nature" between the states be submitted to the Supreme Court.
You don't know the history.
Walt
But it does say...
Then you lied; but you got caught again.
Walt
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