Posted on 01/23/2003 6:06:25 PM PST by one2many
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If so, your assignment is to give the class one example from the 1860 secession crisis using primary sources only of an issue involving a "state's right to determine" or a state's "self-determination" that did not revolve around the issue of slavery. Remember -- primary sources only, not propagandists like DiLerenzo.
When the original states ratified the Constitution, and when later states petitioned to be admitted, they all agreed to abide by the Constitution and that the Constitution trumped their state Constitutions and local laws when there was a difference between the two. Since the southern acts of unilateral secession were ruled to be in violation of the Constitution then their actions were illegal.
The New England states certainly didn't think it was "perpetual" or they wouldn't have come within a gnat's hair of seceding themselves a few decades after the Constitution was ratified. (more than once)
But unlike the southern states the New England states didn't enter into a rebellion. If they had I would have expected the governments reaction in 1814 to be the same as it was in 1861.
But you have not problem with one2many or billbears or 4ConservativeJustices and their spirited defense of the south and their attack on all things Lincoln? Agendas are OK so long as you agree with them, is that it?
The idea that the confederacy was following some legal format when it attempted to withdraw from the United States is nonsense. Perhaps if one or several states took the matter of secession to the US Supreme court, they might have gotten a favorable ruling. But they fired on the US flag instead, and suffered the consequences.
BTW Samuel Colt was a Connecticut Yankee, so does that make you a Yankee lover...?
and thank you for quoting a credible source on the matter.
I'm an American son, and the last time I checked that includes your piney neck of the woods.
You describe yourself, Walt, better than any other poster on this thread with that statement and your embarrassing recent behavior validates this. You fibbed when you claimed that ideas of secession were made up generations after the founders, when several cases exist where showing this to be in error. You may be mad that I called you on it or that others have called you on it, but that is no reason to project your fault of habitual dishonesty onto innocent others.
Jefferson wasn't the only framer. I notice you can't quote him.
Exactly what are you smoking, Walt? I quoted him directly in my previous post. Here it is again.
"The future inhabitants of the Atlantic & Missipi States will be our sons. We leave them in distinct but bordering establishments. We think we see their happiness in their union, & we wish it. Events may prove it otherwise; and if they see their interest in separation, why should we take side with our Atlantic rather than our Missipi descendants? It is the elder and the younger son differing. God bless them both, & keep them in union, if it be for their good, but separate them, if it be better." - Jefferson, August 12, 1803
It is just so funny on one level that this nonsense of legal secession is constantly put forward in the face of the facts, the clear words of the particpants, and just plain common sense.
Again, Walt, that you personally do not like the facts may make you mad, but that is no reason to project your fault of willful ignorance onto innocent others.
The president of the Constitutional Convention stated plainly that the goal of every true American was the consolidation of the Union.
And so he may have. What you fail to note, though, is the distinction between asserting a consolidated union to be a worthiable goal and asserting that union to be an unbreakable permanent fixture. Like it or not, Walt, you are notorious for taking quotes - any quote - from various founders where the word "union" is simply mentioned in any number of contexts or meanings, and upon the simple mention of that word you declare it to be a ringing endorsement of The Lincoln. That is called fraud, Walt, and you commit it daily.
Actually, they fired on the US flag under the circumstance that it flew over a hostile army attempting to maintain its presence inside their borders. They fired on that flag at Fort Sumter the day after a union warship bearing it near the fort fired on a civilian confederate ship attempting entry into Charleston. The circumstances of the Sumter attack were further complicated by the fact that The Lincoln sent a fleet of warships to instigate a battle by attempting entry into the fort. Circumstances such as these place the historical event of Fort Sumter in a context that is lost in your simplistic account of events. In their light, no longer is Sumter a battle of the "bad guys" simply firing on the "good guys" as you would have it.
As for your assertion that the south "suffered the consequences" for firing on Sumter, such reasoning does not stand up to any test of moral judgment. It is absurd to suggest that an isolated firing on a single fort without any casualties provided necessary cause for the violent invasion and subjugation of the south over the following four years. Much to the contrary, The Lincoln consciously chose that path, the bloodiest path, among untold many options.
"Firing on that fort will inagurate a civil war greater than any the world has yet seen...At this time it is suicide, murder, and will lose us every friend in the North...You will wantonly srike a hornet's nest which extends from mountains to ocean, and legions now quiet will swarm out and sting us to death. It is unnecessary; it put us in the wrong; it is fatal." -- Robert Toombs to Jefferson Davis, April 1861
So The Davis knew exactly what would happen if he fired and he did it anyway. And Toombs was right. It was unnecessary, it did put the south in the wrong, and it was fatal. Lincoln didn't kill the confederacy, it was a victim of suicide and The Davis pulled the trigger.
Gnat's hair my butt. The few New England fire-eaters at the Hartford Convention were voted down by the vast majority. The New Englanders could control the nut cases in their midsts. In the South, the nut cases ran the show, and they eventually destroyed their own people.
Agendas are fine and need to be pointed out when identified. You're putting words in my mouth.
Oh I don't know. A lot of people who believe what Southerners did, that government had violated its contract with the governed, just elected Republicans to both houses of Congress.
LOL - That's not a defense of your false statement, Wlat. You said, and I quote: "There were no illusions in 1788-90 as to the permanence of Union under law". Your statement was completely false, and if the above is your response to the evidence I presented that proved it, then you are admitting your error. They would not have deliberately included statements that they could reassume those powers if they thought the union "permanent". As to "United States law", since some States very purposefully stated in the very documents that created the union that they could reassume the powers ceded to that union, the entire union itself would be void as a fraudulent agreement if the union declared it illegal for them to do so.
You don't know the history.
LOL - Apparently I know a lot more than you. Yet once again you have forced me to expose your ignorance and lies about history.
I'm still waiting on a verifiable source for that one quote, BTW. Actually, I'm still waiting for you to respond to a number of such requests I've made over the last month. It seems you can't answer those requests, which is an answer in itself.
You are aptly named. The legality or illegality of secession has absolutely nothing to do with the issue of Wlat's false statement regarding the unity of the framer's understanding, which you appear to be supporting. I was not arguing for the legality of secession. I was only quoting from the ratification declarations to disprove Wlat's ludicrous statement that "There were no illusions in 1788-90 as to the permanence of Union under law", a false statement disproven by the record, just I have shown. They created the Union with the understanding that a State could withdraw from it and reassume those powers. They said so in the very documents that created the union. Once again, some very obviously believed that it was NOT "permanent", and even said so in the documents that created the union. Wlat's statement and position is therefore completely false, as usual.
When New York agreed to ratify the Constitution it specifically stated in it's declaration "That the powers of government may be reassumed by the people, whensoever it shall become necessary to their happiness."
Virginia's declaration included these words: "the powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the People of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression"
A State's right to reassume the powers it ceded to the Union were very clearly stated when the union was created. Therefore his statement that "There were no illusions in 1788-90 as to the permanence of Union under law" is completely and totally false. You are wrong to support Wlat's obviously false statement.
BTW, secession was never ruled to be illegal before or during the war. Also, BTW, any decision declaring it illegal would be the same as declaring the original agreement void as fraudulent since some states joined with the purposely stated understanding they could withdraw and reassume those powers. Either secession was legal, or there was no union.
A majority yes, but "vast" is a deliberate misrepresentation of fact. The moderates did prevail, obviously, but your statement is misleading, to say the least. The "vast majority" did agree on one thing, however. A State did have the right to secede. There was no real question of that right by the "vast majority". The cowards and traitors in New England wanted to secede in 1814 so they could continue to trade with the enemy during the middle of a war. They were so determined in their despicable betrayal that they even refused to provide troops for their own protection, let alone the country's. They wanted to make money by trading with the enemy during war, and let others "provide for the common defense". The Hartford convention absolutely destroyed the Federalist Party. The war of 1812, and New England's treasonous behavior in regards to it, ended while they were in convention to decide about seceding over it, and the humiliation and ridicule resulting from their position dealt a death blow to the Party.
So now you believe that northern newspapers hold the deciding argument. That's fascinating, Wlat. In New York state alone, 46 newspapers supported the legality of secession.
One of my favorite quotes is from a Washington DC paper, the Washington States and Union:
"Vermont, New York, and Virginia, upon entering the Union, were wise enough to distinctly enunciate this principle in setting forth the independent sovereignty of a State, when they reserved the right to "resume the powers delegated to the federal government" whenever they were found to be used in an oppressive manner - a right which is as pure and as sacred as any political heritage under heaven" - March 22, 1861
That's not an editorialist's mere opinion, it's a statement of fact, and of history.
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