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How We Got Fluoridated
Stop Fluoridation USA ^
| Unknown
| Philip Heggen
Posted on 11/22/2002 7:33:34 PM PST by FormerLurker
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How We Got Fluoridated
by Philip Heggen
Preface
Throughout the world, and from the beginning, virtually all living creatures have been exposed to fluoride. It's nothing new. Fluoride is one of the most abundant elements in the earth's crust - cumulative and toxic to all forms of life at remarkably low dosage. Sixty years ago U.S. dental researchers had identified areas in sixteen states where disfiguring mottled enamel was a serious problem. Thirty years ago, the World Health Organization had noted that high concentrations of fluoride are found in areas of every continent and that dental fluorosis is a problem from Finland to South Africa and from England to Japan. But fluoride affects more than just developing teeth. Even dinosaurs have ingested water and vegetation contaminated by fluoride from volcanic gases and ash - and suffered the consequence in terms of painful arthritic effects. Industrial mining and manufacturing, like mini-volcanoes, bring up fluorides from the earth into the biosphere, with similar effects on human communities. In the past century or so, man has spawned these "mini-volcanoes" without fully understanding the consequences. Modern well-drilling equipment has provided much needed water from deep within the earth - and this, too, has resulted in fluoride poisoning. Fluoridation has not been a conspiracy in the usual sense of the word ... but rather, a colossal blunder. "The problem is enormous, unbelievable," says Andezhath Susheela of the Fluorosis Research and Rural Development Foundation in Delhi, India. She has been unraveling the national story for a decade during which time her estimate of the number of people leading "a painful and crippled life" from fluorosis has risen from one million to 25 million and now to 60 million - six million of them children - spread across tens of thousands of communities. "In some villages three-quarters of the population are seriously affected." This paper is a chronicle and overview spanning the history of modern industry. It shows the rise of fluoride pollution and how economic motives have overridden concerns for human health. We take you back to the early metal refinery pollution in Europe and show the record of lawsuits for fluoride damage. This reveals the basis for American industry's fear of being shut down by lawsuits. We also document the steps taken by industry to divert public attention away from fluoride air pollution. This chronicle shows that the origin of water fluoridation is in these fluoride fears of industry -- not in concern for children's teeth. During the 1940s, the development of the atom bomb required handling huge amounts of fluoride in the production of nuclear weapons. Documented here is a major safety study by the Atomic Energy Commission. As a result of this extensive study, the federal government became involved in the suppression of information about fluoride poisoning. Formerly restricted government documents now made available under the Freedom of Information Act have filled in blank spaces in this chronology. Thus, both big government and big industry, for different reasons, became involved in the cover up. The succeeding collaboration of industry and government is documented below in detail. The difficulties in maintaining a deception over an extended time are sizable. This is especially true with an ongoing issue like fluoridation. A compounding of dishonest statements and actions is required to maintain the original deception. At a certain point, the truth of the situation becomes obvious. These consequences are now coming to bear on the defenders of fluoridation. The Epilogue deals with this coming confrontation.
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TOPICS: Heated Discussion
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To: supercat
It seems they could have mentioned that water may be obtained in pure form by burning hydrogen with pure oxygen, and in impure form by turning on a tap. I guess they forgot? LOL
To: supercat
Well, there does appear to be a valence bond with one nitrogen and two oxygens, in addition to the valence bond between the two nitrogens..
To: supercat
Am I right so far?
To: TomB; FormerLurker
Here is another post (361) from the other thread that makes it clear we were discussing optimally flouridated water, NOT flouride treatments.
So someone could die if eating (or breathing) fluoride at a certain concentration. What's new or alarming or surprising about that? A three-year-old could die if he ate a bottle of his mother's iron pills. That's happened before. A three-year-old could die if he drank some lye or bleach or rat poison or alcohol or ate a poison mushroom or a few leaves of certain house plants. All of those things have happened. But that doesn't mean all those things are SO dangerous you couldn't possibly have them around. A three-year-old child has a far greater chance of dying in a car accident going to McDonalds to get a Happy Meal than he does of dying from accidentally eating too much of a topical fluoride treatment carelessly left lying around by a parent. So if you're going to start talking about accidental poisoning, you're moving into an area that only generally has something to do with fluoride since fluoride, in large enough quantities (like almost anything else), is just another of the many, many things that can kill you, depending on quantity and mode of administration. You may as well be against the use of iron as a dietary supplement because people get stabbed to death in the inner city with steel switchblades.
As far as solubility goes, calcium fluoride has zero solubility in water at 20C. What is even the point of talking about calcium fluoride as a source of fluoride? Sodium fluoride, on the other hand, has a solubility of 1M at 20C, so it's extremely soluble. But again, so what? If it's in a product at a certain concentration deemed safe at a certain dosage used under specified conditions, it's safe. If it's used incorrectly, then it's not safe. Whoopie do. The same can be said of vitamin A, vitamin D, niacin, and most of the trace minerals that are required for health.
As far as all this talk is concerned:
Calcium ions are crucial for neurotransmitter activity, so when enough calcium ions are lost, there is at first neurological dyfunction, and then death in high enough concentrations of fluoride.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. The body very carefully controls calcium and sodium levels right down to the individual cell level. It's adept at keeping things within physiological range. If it needs more calcium at any particular time, it'll mobilize it from the bones. That's what they're there for, among other things. Bones are constantly being remodeled for exactly this purpose. Sodium fluoride at levels of 1ppm in drinking water will have NO impact on one's health by taking out calcium ions, leading to convulsions and death. After all, the glass of water one is drinking it in will usually have plenty of dissolved calcium anyway. You'd be in far greater danger by drinking distilled water than drinking water with 1ppm fluoride.
By the way, there is no such thing as "artificial fluoride". A chemical is a chemical is a chemical. It doesn't make any difference whether calcium and fluoride combine by chance in the earth to make fluorspar or whether someone in a lab carefully controls the reaction. The end product is chemically the same. The only difference is that the lab-prepared stuff is a lot more pure.
204
posted on
11/23/2002 11:57:45 PM PST
by
aruanan
To: supercat
BTW, where I said "Well, maybe not for nitrogen oxide as far at the bond between the nitrogen and the oxygen, where the valence bond is actually between the two nitrogen atoms I think..", I was referring to a valence bond in relation to the oxygen atom. Of course it appears that nitrogen oxide molecule is valence bonded.
To: aruanan; TomB
As far as solubility goes, calcium fluoride has zero solubility in water at 20C. What is even the point of talking about calcium fluoride as a source of fluoride? Zero solubility at 20C? Hmmm. You're telling me that its solubility DECREASES with an increase in temperature? Would you classify dissolution of calcium fluoride as a endothermic or exothermic process?
Anyways, Tom has been trying to tell me, along with everybody here, that calcium fluoride totally dissolves in water, no matter what temperature. That's what we've been arguing about for days now...
Sodium fluoride, on the other hand, has a solubility of 1M at 20C, so it's extremely soluble.
Just as I've said, except I was looking at a maximum solubility of 16 ppm at 18 degrees Celcius for calcium fluoride, and 42,200 ppm at 18 C for sodium fluroide. Wait, calcium fluoride has a maximum solubility of 17 ppm at 26 C, yet you are telling me that it drops to zero at 20C. Have you ever seen the following table?
From Fluoridation: Aspects of toxicity
Table 1.
|
Fluoride |
Maximum Solubility |
|
Calcium fluoride |
16 ppm at 18°C (c. 1-62,500) |
|
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17 ppm at 26°C |
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Sodium fluoride |
42,200 ppm at 18°C (c. 1-25) |
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Sodium fluosilicate |
6,250 ppm at 17°C (c. 1-150) |
|
Hydrofluosilicic acid |
Miscible liquid |
But again, so what? If it's in a product at a certain concentration deemed safe at a certain dosage used under specified conditions, it's safe.
It's sprayed on vegetables, wheat, fruits, and seeps into the ground, accumulating in ground water. It is pumped into water supplies, discharged into the air, and is present in virtually all foods because of enviromental pollution. It is even given to kids in the form of pills, in addition to the high fluoride levels in juice. And of course, there is the toothpaste issue. And finally, the EXTREMELY high doseage utilized in fluoride treatments. There IS no controlled dose, and there IS no specified condition. It is virtually in everything we drink, eat, and even in the air we breathe..
If it's used incorrectly, then it's not safe. Whoopie do. The same can be said of vitamin A, vitamin D, niacin, and most of the trace minerals that are required for health.
It's not even necessary, it is purely poison. We don't need it for any normal celluar activity, it is totally worthless as far as a nutrient.
A three-year-old child has a far greater chance of dying in a car accident going to McDonalds to get a Happy Meal than he does of dying from accidentally eating too much of a topical fluoride treatment carelessly left lying around by a parent.
The death of the 3 year old boy was after a scheduled cleaning at the dentist, and was due to a fluoride treatment..
$750,000 Given In Child's Death In Fluoride Case. - Boy, 3, Was in City Clinic for Routine Cleaning
And there's more deaths associated to fluoride..
Deaths or poisonings linked to fluoridation or fluoride products
And even more..
3 U. of C. kidney patients die
So if you're going to start talking about accidental poisoning, you're moving into an area that only generally has something to do with fluoride since fluoride, in large enough quantities (like almost anything else), is just another of the many, many things that can kill you, depending on quantity and mode of administration. You may as well be against the use of iron as a dietary supplement because people get stabbed to death in the inner city with steel switchblades.
Are you a big fan of mercury ingestion too?
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. The body very carefully controls calcium and sodium levels right down to the individual cell level. It's adept at keeping things within physiological range. If it needs more calcium at any particular time, it'll mobilize it from the bones. That's what they're there for, among other things. Bones are constantly being remodeled for exactly this purpose.
Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha...
From Fluoride Toxicity
Pathophysiology: Fluoride has several mechanisms of toxicity. Ingested fluoride initially acts locally on the intestinal mucosa. It can form hydrofluoric acid in the stomach, which leads to GI irritation or corrosive effects. Following ingestion, the GI tract is the earliest and most commonly affected organ system. Once absorbed, fluoride binds calcium ions and may lead to hypocalcemia. Fluoride has direct cytotoxic effects and interferes with a number of enzyme systems; it disrupts oxidative phosphorylation, glycolysis, coagulation, and neurotransmission (by binding calcium). Fluoride inhibits Na+/K+ -ATPase, which may lead to hyperkalemia by extracellular release of potassium. Fluoride inhibits acetylcholinesterase, which may be partly responsible for hypersalivation, vomiting, and diarrhea (cholinergic signs). Seizures may result from both hypomagnesemia and hypocalcemia. Severe fluoride toxicity will result in multiorgan failure. Central vasomotor depression as well as direct cardiotoxicity also may occur. Death usually results from respiratory paralysis, dysrhythmia, or cardiac failure.
Sodium fluoride at levels of 1ppm in drinking water will have NO impact on one's health by taking out calcium ions, leading to convulsions and death. After all, the glass of water one is drinking it in will usually have plenty of dissolved calcium anyway. You'd be in far greater danger by drinking distilled water than drinking water with 1ppm fluoride.
Where do you get this imaginary 1 ppm figure from? The EPA has set the limit at 4 ppm, not 1 ppm. And that is in ADDITION to such healthy does like 6.8 ppm in some fruit juices, the nasty doses present in fruits and vegetables, and the nasty fluoride in toothpaste...
In fact, from NO MARGIN FOR SAFETY
No margin for safety exists since increased hip fractures and osteosclerosis are scientifically associated with water fluoridation. The proponents of fluoridation admit the relatively narrow range between the claimed "therapeutic" dental dose and the onset of toxicity. In several countries severe skeletal fluorosis has been documented from water containing 0.7 parts per million (ppm).5 In medicine we generally insist on a therapeutic index (margin of safety) along the order of 100. A therapeutic index as low as zero is simply unacceptable. The latest research from France on the hip fracture issue found that, "The risk of hip fracture was significantly higher when water fluorine concentration was higher than 0.11 mg/L".6 (0.11 ppm)
Several studies have found that fluoride inhibits broken bone healing and contributes to damage from osteoporosis and abnormal collagen formation.7 Dr. Jennifer Jowsey, one of the originators of the theory that fluoride might help osteoporosis, admitted that fluoride was producing osteoporosis in some bones and at the same time osteosclerosis in others.8 (abnormal and weak bone formation) Dr. J.C. Robins has also noted this deleterious effect.9 Drs. Aksyuk and Bulychev found that the consumption of as little as 1.6 ppm water caused premature aging in the bones of 15-16 year old girls, as well as calcification of the inter osseous membranes and irregular bone formation.10 Remember earlier that I explained that fluoride caused the ameloblasts to lay down irregular enamel. It seems clear that at the same dose level where fluorosis occurs, the osteoblasts also produce abnormal bone growth. These effects may have a delayed response which is not seen until the sixth or seventh decade of life.
In 1990 a large national survey of hip fracture rates published in the Journal of the American Medical Association found a dramatic link between fluoridated water and the frequency of hip fracture.11 This study closely followed a report in the New England Journal of Medicine which found that attempts to treat osteoporosis with fluoride actually increased the disease and resulted in increased bone fractures.12
And from FLUORIDE INTAKE IS ALREADY EXCESSIVE
Fluoride intake is already excessive. . . children fed "home cooked" foods and formula made with fluoridated water will grossly be overdosed. In 1949 the United States Public Health Service researcher F. J. McClure reported that the dietary fluoride intake averaged only 0.2- 0.3 mg/day.13 In 1969 a study by H. Spencer, M.D. found adults in the Chicago area consumed 3.57 to 5.37 mg/day.14 Everyone agrees that this amount is excessive. The FDA ruled in 1989 that Fluoride is not a required nutrient since deficiency diseases cannot be produced. Fluoride has been added to the drinking water of 50% of this nation for almost five decades. Every processed food product or beverage prepared in a fluoridated community contains fluoride. It is simply impossible to avoid this toxic waste substance
Few children eat an average amount of anything. It is not the average child that is at risk here. Those unfortunate infants subjected to home cooking are at the greatest risk. It is also the hypersensitive child who is the prime target of this toxic substance, as well as children who consume more than average amounts of water. Infants who consume water based formulas and processed chicken are clearly at risk as shown by the data from recent nutritional studies.15 Glen S. R.Walker wrote, "An average six month old baby weighing 16 to 20 pounds should consume 2 1/2 ounces of milk per pound body weight per day, making the weight of its daily milk between 40 to 50 ounces. If a powdered milk formula is used and prepared with fluoridated water, the infant will consume, from water alone, well over 1 milligram per day. this is four times the maximum recommended in 1977, by the U.S. Council on Dental Therapeutics."16 1 milligram per day for an adult with an average weight of 160 LB is the "recommended level" and equates to 1/8 of a milligram per day for an infant weighing 20 pounds.
It is irresponsible for dentists and public health officials to advocate the addition of a toxic substance to the community water supply without absolute proof of safety. Since voluminous data already exists indicating fluoride is not a benign substance, and is in fact one of the more toxic substances known to mankind the proof of safety must be able to withstand the most rigorous scientific inspection. The fact is that having a community water supply dispense a toxic substance will overdose many of the children.
By the way, there is no such thing as "artificial fluoride". A chemical is a chemical is a chemical. It doesn't make any difference whether calcium and fluoride combine by chance in the earth to make fluorspar or whether someone in a lab carefully controls the reaction. The end product is chemically the same. The only difference is that the lab-prepared stuff is a lot more pure.
It was Tom that started calling naturally occuring calcium fluoride "natural fluoride". And you are wrong, as many of the fluorides in use ARE artificial, as they DO NOT exist in nature, thus they are man-made.
To: supercat
About the bonds. Actually, what I was referring to as valence bonds are actually called covalent bonds which is what happens when two atoms share the same electrons. This is what forms a molecule.
To: supercat
Well, maybe not for nitrogen oxide as far at the bond between the nitrogen and the oxygen, where the valence bond is actually the between the two nitrogen atoms I think.. Er, I think that ALL the bonds are covalent. I was just being silly... :)
To: supercat
To: supercat
Yes, though as I've stated, common practice does not involve quantitative prefixes on anions. H2O, as I mentioned earlier, utilizes covalent bonding. So you would not refer to the hydrogen atom as a anion in relation to a water molecule..
Overview: The Hydrogen bond
To: supercat
So actually, in following the rules for a covalent bond, I'd say water SHOULD be called dihydrogen monoxide. THAT is what I was getting to with what I had said to sinkspur...
To: FormerLurker
And you very well know that the EPA MCL (Maximum Contaminant Level) for fluoride is 4.0 mg (4 ppm), NOT the imaginary 1 ppm that you fervently insist on.And again, here you go with your 1 ppm fluoride ions = 1 ppm fluoride ions. That IS true, but you fail to mention that the SOLUTIONS of the different COMPOUNDS ARE DIFFERENT AND HAVE DIFFERENT PROPERTIES...
What I'm dealing with now, as I have dealt with since the last thread is comparing naturally flouridated water to optimally flouridated water, and that level is 1ppm.
You are also trying to eliminate the fact that if you exceed a 16 ppm concentration, sodium fluoride stops dissolving while sodium fluoride will dissolve up to 42,200 ppm.
Yes I am. That is because those solubility numbers are completely irrelevant to the discussion of flouridated water.
And again, although a fluoride ion is a fluoride ion, calcium fluoride is NOT sodium fluoride, and calcium fluoride in solution is NOT THE SAME AS sodium fluoride in solution.
In looking at optimally flouridated water, we have proved that that is an incorrect statement. Since the sodium completely dissociates from the flouride there is no problem with bound flouride. And since the amount of sodium in a liter of water is miniscule compared to the amount in the daily diet, the intake of sodium is not an issue.
So tell me, what then makes these two different in normally flouridated water?
213
posted on
11/24/2002 5:31:33 AM PST
by
TomB
To: TomB
In looking at optimally flouridated water, we have proved that that is an incorrect statement.
- There is no such thing as "optimally fluoridated" water. Fluoride is poison, so there is no "optimal level" of poison, although you and your ilk claim 1 ppm of toxic waste used as rat poison and pesticide is actually good for your health.
- Many if not most water supplies are over your "optimal level", and the EPA limit is 4 ppm. Your own literture states that levels over 1 ppm are harmful. That's why you keep repeating the falsehood that tap water is at a 1 ppm level.
- You claim that solutions of calcium fluoride and sodium fluoride are identical. They are not identical, as when one evaporates, the concentration of fluoride ion is limited, where with the other it isn't. They have different properties within the human body as well.
- Sodium intake from the water never was the issue. The issue is that with calcium fluoride, the solution is in equilibrium in the blood stream, whereas with sodium fluoride, the solution is not. Fluoride has a higher attraction to calcium than it does for sodium. As such, fluoride is more prone to seek out needed calcium in the blood and and in the bones. An adult retains about 40% of all fluoride intake. That intake includes fluoride from foods, beverages (including tap water), air, and of course, dental products Children retain MORE fluoride than an adult.
- One factor not considered in this discussion is the pH level of blood, and how it may cause calcium and other anions to bind with fluoride in the bloodstream. That mechanism is obviously present, as in lethal doses of fluoride, calcium binding with fluoride in the blood stream is what leads to death, where the neurotransmitters shut down leading to respiratory paralysis and cardiac failure. The Pathophysiology: link will verify this fact.
So tell me, what then makes these two different in normally flouridated water?
Go buy yourself a book on chemistry, read up on human physiology, and perhaps then come back and read this thread and try to understand the answers I already gave you countless times already. Maybe then you would see why fluoride compounds of ANY type are harmful, but those other than calcium fluoride are even more so....
To: FormerLurker; aruanan; discostu
There is no such thing as "optimally fluoridated" water Apparently the CDC disagrees with you:
In the United States during 2000, approximately 162 million persons (65.8% of the population served by public water systems) received optimally fluoridated water compared with 144 million (62.1%) in 1992 (6).
# You claim that solutions of calcium fluoride and sodium fluoride are identical. They are not identical, as when one evaporates, the concentration of fluoride ion is limited, where with the other it isn't. They have different properties within the human body as well.
Despite the effort to change the subject, we are still discussing a compound here that completely dissociates into fluoride and sodium or calcuim. You have yet to adequately explain the difference between an ion of fluoride from one vs the other. Now you bring up some nonsense about flouride taking "needed calcuim" from the body, but the number of ions taken in is not enough to upset any kind of equilibrium.
As aruanan pointed out, there is such a large reservior of calcium in the bones that it would be impossible to affect blood plasma levels of calcium by drinking flouridated water.
So, once again we have determined that, at normally flouridated levels, there is no difference between fluoride ions from CaF2 and NaF. And once again the question you have been ignoring rears its ugly head. By you own admission, there are many areas in this country that have high natural fluoride levels. They have been drinking this water for centuries. Why can't any evidence of disease be found in communities with flouridated water vs those without.
215
posted on
11/24/2002 10:51:00 AM PST
by
TomB
To: TomB
All this flouride talk makes me want to suck on toothpaste, and I've always hated the faux-minty taste of toothpaste.
There's just too much flouride out there, and our life expectancy is too long, to be thinking it's bad. Sure in sufficient doses it'll kill you, but so will water and oxygen, everything has a T-50.
To: TomB; discostu
What Tom ignores is the neurological damage it causes over cumulative exposure. Tom also ignores any and all explanations that have been given him on anything to do with chemistry.
Tom needs to study. Perhaps Tom needs to lay off the fluoride for awhile, as it does affect IQ....
To: TomB
As aruanan pointed out, there is such a large reservior of calcium in the bones that it would be impossible to affect blood plasma levels of calcium by drinking flouridated water. And as I pointed out in my reply to him, he's full of it. If you had any reading skills at all, you'd see in the toxicity link I provided how the mechanism leading to death IS calcium binding. Just because a person doesn't ingest a lethal dose doesn't mean that it does no harm. As I said, some fates are worse than death...
To: FormerLurker
Tom needs to study. I minored in college in chemistry.
What Tom ignores is the neurological damage it causes over cumulative exposure.
Apparently you have a hard time undertanding "cumulative exposure". When you say there is cumulative exposure, you are saying it bulids up in the tissuse over a period of time, and is not excreted. Some heavy metals are an example of this.
Fluoride, on the other hand, reaches an equlibrium in the body, mostly exchanging with bone. The remaining is then excreted. There is no build up of fluoride in the body.
Tom also ignores any and all explanations that have been given him on anything to do with chemistry.
No I'm ignoring explanations that have no basis in fact, whether or not they are based in chemistry.
When I first posted to you on the previous thread, I pointed out that the fluoride ion was naturally occurring in many water supplies. I then asked, this being the case, why there weren't any studies showing differences in disease rates for the areas with high natural fluoride concentrations. If what you write is correct, the towns with these high levels should have IQ problems, skeletal fluorosis, and all the other troubles you list in your litany of diseases.
219
posted on
11/24/2002 11:22:07 AM PST
by
TomB
To: FormerLurker
If you had any reading skills at all, you'd see in the toxicity link We are talking about normally flouridated water, not posionings.
And if what you are saying about fluoride is true, with a hundred million people drinking flouridated water, where are the deaths?
Water has had flouride added to it for FIFTY YEARS now. You'd think we'd start seeing some problems by now.
220
posted on
11/24/2002 11:30:01 AM PST
by
TomB
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