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Elizabeth Smart Thread, 9/26/02 to ???

Posted on 09/26/2002 12:34:48 AM PDT by stlnative

NEW THREAD - PING WHOM EVER YOU LIKE - I DON'T PING ANYMORE - SORRY


TOPICS: Chit/Chat
KEYWORDS: elizabethsmart
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To: freedox
No, I can't right now. It will be Monday at the earliest before I am able to research this out.
161 posted on 09/27/2002 11:42:16 AM PDT by Utah Girl
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To: FR_addict
To: All
PREDICTION - Within one week Ed Smart will hire Mark Furhman and Fox News Channel will move their broadcasting to Salt Lake City.

611 posted on 9/3/02 7:21 PM Pacific by Sherlock

You're right, Ed blew it big time on this one by not reading my post. He has the sketch of the perp with the blue SUV and WHITE BASEBALL HAT and where is this case going? Right into oblivion with the Chandra Levy case. I hope old Dr. Lee can do Ed some good but what Ed needs is for Mark Fuhrman to come into town and start kicking butt and taking names and finding out what the SLCPD and FBI are hiding here. Dr. Lee may find out if the screen was cut from the inside or outside or maybe even where the mud is from but Ed needs to know who the man is in the sketch and why LE is withholding this information from him at this point.

I have no doubt this fellow in the sketch is the same guy seen by the milkman in daylight wearing a WHITE BASEBALL HAT in Federal Heights on morning of Jun 3, on the surveillance video of the Federal Heights convenience store shortly before the kidnapping wearing a WHITE BASEBALL HAT stealing beer, in the Shriner's Hospital lot from 20 feet by Fred Trujillo the security man wearing the beige jacket, short black thick hair before he drove up into Federal Heights, by MK wearing a WHITE BASEBALL HAT, by the searchers in Emigration canyon with a red, blue, and green tatoo wearing a WHITE BASEBALL HAT when shots were fired, by the hikers that saw him in his WHITE BASEBALL HAT digging a rectangular hole for a pig roast nervously then driving off hurriedly in a blue SUV, and across the street from Moul's giving Ricci a ride on Jun 8 in his blue van.

If LE had any interest in determining who this person is they would get sketch artists and bring all these people together. The milkman saw him in daylight. The store has him on video! Fred the security man saw him in profile from 20 feet. MK saw him. The searchers in Emigration canyon saw him from close range. The hikers talked to the guy digging the pig roast pit. Moul saw the guy across the street in daylight and even pointed out he was athletic.

Do you really believe LE doesn't know who this man is? If Ed had hired Mark Fuhrman when I told him to instead of Henry Lee we'd all know who kidnapped Elizabeth's by now. And let me give you a hint, varina, it's not a Mormon biship, no matter how much you pray for it to be.

162 posted on 09/27/2002 11:58:07 AM PDT by Sherlock
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To: Utah Girl
"And if that is jumping to a conclusion, then I jump to that conclusion."


Fair enough. I'm glad you are honest enough to admit that. That said, I see no reason to continue to debate conjecture.

I'll debate facts supported with source. Anything else would be meaningless drivel on my part.
163 posted on 09/27/2002 12:04:33 PM PDT by partialpressures
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To: Devil_Anse
I don't think Ricci was the person that went in the house and took Elizabeth. But by the fact it was his M.O. having broken into the neighbor's house in the middle of the night, used the pistol in the bank robbery, and bragged to his friends what an easy place the Smart house is to knock off, and his inability to explain his actions with the Jeep (or even acknowledge he had the Jeep) or tell LE who he left Moul's Repair Shop with on Jun 8, it's pretty obvious he was an accomplice in the crime.

Ricci knew where Elizabeth's bedroom was, probably had a key to the house and knew how to get in if he didn't (like the neighbor's sliding door, he bragged to his friends it was easy to knock off), had the pistol from previous crime, and had the idea to give to the accomplice. I think Ricci was probably the 2nd vehicle that met the kidnapper in Shriner's parking lot. Don't forget also Ricci was seen leaving Moul's on Jun 8 with this man that fits the same description given by the milkman, the convenience store video, the security man at Shriner's, MK, the searchers in Emigration Canyon, and the hikers at the pig roast pit.
164 posted on 09/27/2002 12:15:57 PM PDT by Sherlock
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To: partialpressures
I remember early reports that Ricci's parole officer had just found out a few weeks before the kidnapping that Ricci wasn't attending the drug program he was supposed to be in and he had told Ricci if he didn't get back on the program he was going back to jail. In other words, he knew he was using and was giving him one warning to give it up. So Ricci knew he was headed back to prison since it probably wasn't likely he could just quit the drugs at will so why not a final fling with his buddies before going back up the river.

I think 'treatment program' implies drug abuse. Thurber's description of Ricci on Jun 5 drinking beer and going 1000 MPH sounds like amphetamine to me.
165 posted on 09/27/2002 12:20:48 PM PDT by Sherlock
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To: Sherlock
Instead of Henry Lee, Ed Smart should have brought in Mark Furhman. He helped solved the 20 year old Martha Moxley case that no one else would touch.

Furhman evidently has very good investigative skills and that is what is needed to find out what happened to Elizabeth. I would love to see him "hound-dog" this case.

My earlier post was 8/30/02. We finally agreed on something. Ed should read our posts.

166 posted on 09/27/2002 12:29:01 PM PDT by FR_addict
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To: freedox
Can anyone provide a reference indicating that Ricci's required "treatment program" was for DRUGS rather than for ALCOHOL?

I've heard much about Ricci's drug problem, including his last parole was delayed because he was using in prison, but I've never heard he had a drinking problem. He was not allowed to drink any alcohol as a condition of his parole.

So you think some Mormon bishop ran into Elizabeth 2 days earlier jogging and somehow managed to find out where her bedroom was in her house and slipped in her bedroom in the middle of the night with a pistol (which happens to be Ricci's M.O. exactly from the middle of the night burglary next door to the Smarts and the bank robbery) and kidnapped her at gunpoint? Or do you think the Smart parents made up this story of the pistol which just happens to fit in exactly with Ricci's M.O.? Don't you think it's more likely this was one of Ricci's ex-con dirtballs that got the floorplan, the key, the pistol, and the idea from his good buddy that bragged about how easy it would be to burglarize this place, all the easy pickins he talked about and all? Think about it, Freedox.

167 posted on 09/27/2002 12:29:21 PM PDT by Sherlock
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To: partialpressures
FWIW, my cursory search of the archives revealed nothing to support current drug use by Ricci, other than alcohol. His employer (owner of Mitchell's Nursery) described his work performance as "excellent" and stated that Ricci had not missed a day of work during his employment there. Andy Thurber certainly seemed to be knowledgable about drug use in the Ricci household, and yet I never heard him mention Rick Ricci using anything other than alcohol.
168 posted on 09/27/2002 12:34:05 PM PDT by freedox
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To: FR_addict
Yes, I caught that, we agree. There's still hope for ya as long as you don't allow yourself to be influenced by varina, Neenah, bella, cherry, iwo jima, spore-gasm, and all those other bad influences here. You've gotta stick with the winners, sandude, Utah Girl, Devil_Anse, trussel, CookieDough, GovernmentShrinker, Jolly Green, etc.
169 posted on 09/27/2002 12:35:23 PM PDT by Sherlock
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To: Sherlock
I think things are getting ready to break. This case will eventually be solved. We will see then who the winners are.

170 posted on 09/27/2002 12:39:38 PM PDT by FR_addict
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Comment #171 Removed by Moderator

To: pacer2
When YOU told him to hire Mark Fuhrman??

I only meant in my earlier Freeper post.

I knew Ed wouldn't hire Mark Furhman. I said he "should" hire Mark Furhman, if he really wanted to find out what happened.

Mark dogs a case and makes enemies aloing the way, but this case would have a chance of being solved. We would have the answers to some of the nagging problems and inconsistencies of this case.

The only thing Sherlock and I agree on is that Ed should call in Mark Furhman. I never thought he would and so far Ed has been true to form. The Levy's called in a detective when they realized that the police in DC were not going to solve their daughter's disappearance.

172 posted on 09/27/2002 12:59:17 PM PDT by FR_addict
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To: FR_addict
I think things are getting ready to break. This case will eventually be solved. We will see then who the winners are.

Well, so much for our short lived honeymoon of agreement. I think LE safely has this case in the freezer and unless a Mark Fuhrman shows up on the scene this one is in the books with Chandra Levy. If Elizabeth has been killed and her body is found LE will say it is too late to get any evidence from it and won't say much else unless the mud in the area ties to the mud or Ricci's Jeep, in which case they'll use it to further implicate Ricci, but I'm fairly certain they're never going to let us know who this 5'8" fellow with the short, thick dark hair, beige jacket, athletic, with a WHITE BASEBALL HAT that kidnapped Elizabeth is. I'm convinced they know who it is, and I'd sure like to know why they don't want us to know.

173 posted on 09/27/2002 1:03:14 PM PDT by Sherlock
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To: FR_addict
The Levy's called in a detective when they realized that the police in DC were not going to solve their daughter's disappearance.

I think where the Levys went wrong was in hiring an insider (Billy Martin) for their attorney. I think they should have hired an outsider who didn't have to worry about creating enemies and being considered to be a local team player for future business in the area. Nothing against Billy Martin but he has done nothing for the Levy family. That case is over.

174 posted on 09/27/2002 1:08:18 PM PDT by Sherlock
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To: Devil_Anse
Which brings me to another possibility which I sometimes consider: that maybe Elizabeth's father is somehow involved. How sad that would be.

I know there are those who would disagree but I think that if Ed was involved LE would have been discovered it by now. He doesn't seem like the kind of person who could hold up to tough questioning if he had something to hide. Seasoned criminals are best at not breaking under intense questioning. Ricci's refusal to account for his vehicle is an example of that. Most John Q Citizens would crack or slip up some how. In fact I think Ed would probably fare worse than the average Joe based on what we've seen of him.

175 posted on 09/27/2002 1:10:46 PM PDT by sandude
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To: FR_addict; freedox; All
Sister Didn't See the Face of Abductor

Friday, June 14, 2002

BY KEVIN CANTERA

and MICHAEL VIGH

(c) 2002, THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE

The only known witness to the abduction of Elizabeth Smart -- her 9-year-old sister -- did not see the face of the man who took her because the bedroom the girls shared was in darkness, The Salt Lake Tribune has learned.

Among other avenues of investigation, police are looking at whether an extended family member may have participated in the kidnapping of the 14-year-old girl.

Law enforcement sources say the younger sister's inability to see the man's face means investigators cannot rule out the possibility the crime was committed by someone she knew.

On Thursday, police continued to say they had not ruled out any suspects, including members of Elizabeth's family. The girl's June 5 disappearance sparked a large-scale search and has made headlines around the globe.

David Smart, Elizabeth's uncle, told reporters Thursday the family understood that its members were a necessary focus of the probe and they were willing to sit for lie-detector tests. "If they did not investigate us, they would be negligent," he said.

The Tribune has confirmed an NBC report Thursday that the responses given by one member of Elizabeth's extended family during a polygraph test raised investigators' suspicions about his alibi.

Police have refused to comment on lie-detector tests they have administered in the case, except to say that Elizabeth's father, Edward Smart, was tested Sunday.

His brother, Tom Smart, appeared on CNN's "Larry King Live" on Wednesday night and said he, too, had been tested.

Tom Smart characterized the polygraph test administered to Edward as "four hours of hell." "We've been ripped apart by our polygraph[s]," Tom Smart told CNN. "We've been ripped apart to the core."

Police have requested television footage of the Smart family's numerous appearances on camera since the abduction.Does anyone remember this? POLICE HAVE REQUESTED TELEVISION FOOTAGE OF THE SMART FAMILY'S NUMEROUS APPEARANCES ON CAMERA SINCE THE ABDUCTION ? I don't remember that. Why do you think they wanted that? This seems very odd, don't it? Remember, I didn't dream this up..and I don't hate this family..but it is time to stop playing games !! Edward and Tom Smart declined to answer news-media inquiries Thursday, citing exhaustion.

Because the 9-year-old has provided few details about Elizabeth's abductor, police have been unable to create a composite sketch or provide a more detailed description of the suspect.I guess they got more later?

Police say the girl described the suspect as soft-spoken, with dark hair, about 5-foot-8 and wearing a white hat and white pants. He also carried a small handgun.

Fearing her sister would be harmed, the 9-year-old waited two hours before telling her parents that Elizabeth had been snatched, according to a police report, which also noted that their father called neighbors before the police were summoned.

Also Thursday, Elizabeth's family reacted sharply to a story in The Tribune, which described physical evidence suggesting the break-in at the family's Federal Heights home may have been staged by someone inside. The information was attributed to unnamed law enforcement sources.

"We put no credibility in the story," said Dave Francom, Elizabeth's uncle, during an afternoon news briefing.

NBC News, however, said it had "largely confirmed" The Tribune's story. As reported by the newspaper, the network also revealed a window screen had been cut from inside the house, apparently to make it look like the break-in had occurred there.

The window is in the first-floor kitchen of the $1.1 million home, while the bedroom from which Elizabeth disappeared is on the second floor. Police believe whoever took the girl exited the home through a door in the kitchen, The Tribune has learned.

The NBC report included additional details, stating there were no telltale scuff marks on the wall outside the window or threads that would indicate that someone squeezed through the narrow opening.

The search continued Thursday for Bret Michael Edmunds, 26, a man wanted for questioning by police, who insist he is not a suspect in Elizabeth's disappearance. A milk deliverer doing rounds in the neighborhood two days before Elizabeth's disappearance wrote down a partial license plate number of what he thought was a suspicious vehicle, which police traced to Edmunds's 1997 green Saturn.

License plates bearing the number 266 XJH, as publicized by police, were found about 8:30 p.m. Thursday by a resident on a Centerville frontage road, authorities said.

Edmunds was spotted at Sunday night's candlelight vigil for Elizabeth, held at Liberty Park, said Salt Lake police Detective Dwayne Baird.

Police received information that Edmunds was drinking beer in the park. Officers looked for him, Baird said Thursday, but "didn't pursue it aggressively because it was such a minor infraction." Edmunds, who was not sought by police at the time, eluded authorities, Baird said.

kcantera@sltrib.com,

mvigh@sltrib.com

176 posted on 09/27/2002 1:29:26 PM PDT by Neenah
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To: sandude
I think your assessment is a fair one, sandude......and you make a good point. I'm just of the opinion that LE is not telling what they know in this case, perhaps (and hopefully) in the interest of bringing Elizabeth back safely.
177 posted on 09/27/2002 1:34:04 PM PDT by freedox
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To: Neenah
Damon Van Dam, I mean Ed Smart, is shaking in his boots, Neenah. What the police asked the news organizations for were videotapes of the attendees at the services for Elizabeth and of the searchers. The news organizations would only give them the search video footage they had shown on TV. Here is how your article was answered:

Questionable Motives




6/25/02
Public Forum Letter
SLC Tribune

Questionable Motives

Concerning the investigation of the Elizabeth Smart case: Acknowledging that every avenue must be investigated, why did The Tribune put such heavy emphasis on the family as suspects, prompting many national media outlets to follow suit?
Is it the most plausible explanation? The police clearly don't think so, despite what unnamed individuals may have told The Tribune. These families have been frank and cooperative and have not sought to protect themselves in doing so. Yet The Tribune skewed that very circumstance, and skewered a family amid the greatest suffering most of us can imagine.
It couldn't be Tom Smart's Deseret News affiliation. Too minor, I would hope. Surely it couldn't be the potential career gains for the reporters who crafted the intriguing arrangement of opinion and conjecture from "unnamed law enforcement sources." Or the institutional gains in selling more papers, and most importantly, getting The Tribune noticed by and widely mentioned in the national media outlets that "largely confirmed" the story. Surely we can hope for better than that. Can't we?
Yet these motives have all crossed my mind. Am I wrong to publish them? I suppose so, mainly because I only have as much on The Trib as The Trib has on these families. I'm told by a highly placed unnamed media source that The New York Times wouldn't touch The Tribune 's allegations. But the media is increasingly carnivorous, and seems to care less and less whether the meat is cooked or raw.
To all the Smarts and Francoms, to Ed and Lois and their children, hang on. Hang on. We are with you, with Elizabeth, and all will be well.

CYNTHIA COLLIER
Holladay
178 posted on 09/27/2002 1:41:57 PM PDT by Sherlock
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To: Neenah
"NBC News, however, said it had "largely confirmed" The Tribune's story. As reported by the newspaper, the network also revealed a window screen had been cut from inside the house, apparently to make it look like the break-in had occurred there.

The window is in the first-floor kitchen of the $1.1 million home, while the bedroom from which Elizabeth disappeared is on the second floor. Police believe whoever took the girl exited the home through a door in the kitchen, The Tribune has learned.

The NBC report included additional details, stating there were no telltale scuff marks on the wall outside the window or threads that would indicate that someone squeezed through the narrow opening."

You know, I might consider the possibility that the perp had cut the screen himself on the way out of the kitchen, just to throw the police off......if it were not for the different stories from different family members regarding how and when the screen damage was discovered.

(BTW, I notice this story says the perp was believed to have exited the home through the kitchen....when was it reported that he had left through the front door at the bottom of the stairs? Or was that ever actually reported?)

179 posted on 09/27/2002 1:49:10 PM PDT by freedox
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To: Sherlock
I think LE safely has this case in the freezer

You could be right here. The fact that they have gone back to square one to review the entire case could indicate that they are bogged down and are hoping that something new will pop out at them to invigorate the investigation. We had a murder in our community back in February of 2000 that seemed to be completely dead. The case was featured on America's Most Wanted some time ago so some of you may remember it. Michelle O'Keefe was only 18 when she was murdered in a park and ride just outside of Palmdale. She had no known boyfriend and no enemies. It wasn't a robbery and it seemed that the police were totally baffled. The story was covered extensively in the local press but eventually the coverage died out. This week, 2 and a half years later, the Antelope Valley Press began a 4 part series on the case that showed the police have been actively investigating this crime all along and have a prime suspect. This mans picture is on the front page of today’s paper. I thought the case was as cold as could be and was quite gratified to find that there is still hope for some justice for Michelle’s family. For those of you who are curious the man under suspicion was the security guard at the park and ride and was the man who reported the shooting. So don't give up on LE just yet. They may still bring some closure to the Smart family.

180 posted on 09/27/2002 1:49:13 PM PDT by sandude
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