Elizabeth Smart Thread, 9/17/02 to ???

[Utah Girl]

Just thought I would start a new thread.

[Neenah]

I have been a Deputy District Attorney

Wow, Devil !! Where were you working? Did you give up Law Enforcement? I notice you are here day and night. This case must intrigue you. Even the LE say this is such an unusual case. You must agree then.

I will have to take more care is reading your replys. You not only are a judge of people's character, but you know the law from the inside. Impressive!! Thanks for telling us this !

[Neenah]

We don't always have to take sides or gang up on each other, in order to try to find the truth.

BY GEORGE, I THINK SHE'S GOT IT !!! Good for you !!

[freedox]

Thanks for posting this article, UG, but your highlighting does not resolve the issue. sandude made two assertions about the article:

"There was a lengthy article in the Tribune or Deseret News which refuted this. It states that LE was on the scene before any neighbor arrived and that the Smarts called police before anyone else."

"If you read the whole article it states that police arrived on the scene whithin 12 minutes of the first call and that no neighbors were present."

Neither of these statements is supported by what is stated in the article, with the exception of Suann Adams' statement. In this article, the police are accepting full responsibility for what happened to the crime scene AFTER their arrival......they neither can nor do they accept responsibility for what happened BEFORE they got there. Nowhere in the article do the police retract their previous reports of neighbors being present in the home when they arrived on the scene.

[Utah Girl]

The Smarts have also said that they called the police first. It was on Ashleigh Banfield's show back in late June, no transcript is available. Personally I think that Dinse and the SLPD were spending their time investigating who took Elizabeth, rather than track down who called who first. I'm sure phone records were amongst the things to be looked at pretty quickly also. And now that the pressure isn't white hot, the SLPD is probably going back and reviewing everything to make sure they can clear some things up.

[freedox]

"He (Dinse) also said that contrary to a police watch log that said a member of the Smart family had called neighbors before alerting police, authorities now believe the first call was to the Salt Lake Police Department. Dinse did not explain how the discrepancy had been resolved."

Thanks for finding this, Neenah. Since the original reports of approximately 10 neighbors being present when police arrived have been allowed to stand, I guess that means those 10 people all got there within 11 minutes. Even with a "phone tree" that's still mighty impressive.

[Utah Girl]

The police arrived twelve minutes after the phone call. I tend to believe Sueann Adams, she hasn't been lying, and her statement jibes with what she has said from the very beginning. Her name wasn't used in initial reports to the media, all I ever heard was a neighbor who got dressed and was the first one over there, and the police were already there.

[freedox]

I'm just relying on Chief Dinse's statements, as quoted and sourced in post # 920. I have never heard him retract his statements that approximately 10 neighbors were present when his officers arrived.

[Neenah]

Failure to secure a crime scene properly can cause evidentiary problems if a case is taken to court, Deputy District Attorney Kent Morgan said.

This is so pathetic!! Mr. Smart, no matter how berieved he was, and confused, screwed up big time with 40 - 50 people in the house...

Ed Smart said he recalled 40 to 50 different people inside his house that morning, most of them family and members of his LDS ward whom he called for help after first contacting police.......he directly CAUSED this whole mess. I am not saying intentionally, but directly.

For the police to not disipline the officer's in an "OH WELL ! " type of attitude is like the L.A.P.D.

While admitting their mistake, police also downplayed the impact it could have on this case, which has remained unsolved for three months.

Read the above statement again...the police downplayed the impact it could have on this case.....why?....cause they know what happened to Elizabeth? Just a thought.

In any case I have read about or followed, this step is very important. They have been very casual all along..and for weeks on end now..silent. Why? There are strange statements coming from both ends...LE and Family. Not my words, but in transcripts and print. Talk discussions, and internet...backyard talk, and phone talk. Here on this board, and by professionals and common folk alike. THIS CASE STINKS and something is very wrong.

[Utah Girl]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not belaboring the point anymore, this is the third or fourth go around of it over the past few months.

[freedox]

"This is so pathetic!! Mr. Smart, no matter how berieved he was, and confused, screwed up big time with 40 - 50 people in the house..."

I'll go you one better, Neenah.....not only did Ed Smart screw up, so did all 40 to 50 of those people!! Out of all those people, didn't ANYONE stop to think about protecting a CRIME SCENE? I can see it slipping one person's mind, but 40 or 50 minds??? Of course, it sounds as if the police were doing nothing to stop it, either......

Once again, it calls up my questions about MK's "armed gunman" story......WHO was told about the armed gunman and WHEN were they told? These people were all milling about the house as if there were no armed gunman and no crime scene to be concerned with........

[Neenah]

"I don't really consider it a key point whether the police or the neighbors were called first, and I don't think it necessarily tells us much."

Devil !! You were a Deputy District Attorney, and you don't think that neighbors and friends, 40 -50 of them (Ed Smart's words) in the house and outside the house, pattering about in the dirt with their shoes...was a key point? Aren't cases built on FORENSIC EVIDENCE? Isn't that important in the gathering of information from the onset of the PD coming upon a crime scene?

You don't think it tells us much? Hmmmm..tells me alot. It also tells me that if they stick to the "armed gunman" theory, and go to court some day with it...all these words spoken in press conferences, and transcripts, and police logs, will be stated, and have to be admitted..and yet....the PD didn't dicipline it's officers? For crying out loud. That is outrageous !!

Think of this...your chlld has been abducted AT GUNPOINT ( I don't buy this , by the way ) and you call 40 - 50 people to your home in the middle of the night? What did you leave out when you told them of your child? did you forget to tell them about the gun? Or..was it a different story?

I fail to believe , and I don't care how much you care for a family member or neighbor, that if you knew that your freind, neighbor, family member's child had been taken at gunpoint...most people would be intelligent enough to say immediately when the phone call came, to call the police, and express love and concern. I do not believe they would come over to the house and start searching in the bushes, and all around the house looking for an armed gunman.

Did Mr. Smart leave out that little tidbit about the GUN ? It makes no sense that that many people would flock there if they had known that. It just don't make sense.

I know some would say that these people loved the Smarts and wanted to help them because of that. I understand that. But for 40-50 people to come there, knowing there could be an armed man or men for that matter, hiding nearby..it's a bit of a stretch of the imagination. Most people know that the Police are there for that, and it would be better to stay away. And besides that..what kind of man is Ed Smart, to call all these ward people in the middle of the night for their support? What could they do? Jump on the gunman?

I just don't understand that reasoning at all! Like Iwo Jima says, it is not a manly man who would do that. This is the most bizaar case I have ever studied. From the first day, people all around the country were shaking their heads. The police bother me. The family bothers me. And most of all, it bothers me that this girl is the pawn.

[partialpressures]

First time poster here, so be kind.

One of the items that I've always thought peculiar is the 2 hour wait of Mary. Now when I read the above article, I find it may have even been 3 hours. What was the child doing for this time? Just sitting in her bed trying make sense of what happened. I would think she would have fallen asleep or cried inconsolably, and then fallen asleep until her normal waking time. Such a brave little girl. I just can't imagine how she kept herself awake while there in the dark.

Also, why do we hear reference that Mary wakes her dad. When my children needed a parent at night, they came to their mother. Mothers are usually the ones that respond at night.

Also, is there a male living in Sue Ann's home? I think I've read she is a music teacher.

[Neenah]

I am going to post this for a reason. Yes, UG we have discussed many things for months now...but that is what a case is..you go over things. Nothing you or I or anyone else says is gospel in this. We can only go by what is in print, press, or talk by people involved.

With that in mind, and what we were talking about today, namely THE GUN...Elilzabeth taken at GUNPOINT...and the question asked about did the Smart's reveal to all these friends and neighbors.." OMG!! ELIZABETH HAS BEEN KIDNAPPED AT GUNPOINT !! CAN YOU COME OVER RIGHT AWAY ??/ !! " or something like that...( I would assume it was not a subdued voice calling )..Did they tell them that she was taken at gunpoint????

I remembered a Larry King show where Chris Smart was on, and I looked it up...Does this sound like Elizabeth was taken at gunpoint?? Kind of bother's me, you know?

KING: Chris, last week when Nancy was hosting this show, Elizabeth's uncle Tom said that he believes the person who committed this crime is not a bad person at all, just somebody who actually may like Elizabeth.

Do you share that view, Chris?

C. SMART: We feel that it is probably somebody who may have been obsessed with Elizabeth. You know, I mean that's my own personal feeling. I can't speak for the rest of the family members.

You know, and we feel that, you know, probably didn't realize what he was getting into. And the only thing we can do is plead with the individual to please just let Elizabeth go. Take her out anywhere. You know, out on the highway, out anywhere. Let her off where she can go to a truck stop or where another car can be able to see her.

And that's where we appreciate you, Larry, and all the media getting her picture out there, getting her story out there, so if she is let go, people will recognize her and be able to pick her up and be able to bring her back.

[Utah Girl]

When I was growing up, my dad would always answer the night time calls. I'm one of ten children, my mom would take care of the baby, and my dad would take care of the rest of the kids at night for drinks of water, etc. BTW, welcome. :)

[Neenah]

WELCOME, partialpressures...Very nice post.

Last question first. I know nothing of Sue Ann, but I think I would know her if I saw her, if she was the little dark haired lady that was interviewed several times by the media.

As far as Mary Katherine. Doesn't your heart just bleed for that little one? We don't know what she did. Actually, we know nothing of her at all. She has been sheltered from all press (rightly so). All we know is what the family has said.

That little girl may be "doing well", but I feel very bad for her. For the rest of her life, this will be on her heart. She is the only witness....

Having had alot of kids, I cannot fathom a little 9 yr. old witnessing her sister at GUN POINT (if in fact there was a gun), waiting all that while. I know some say she was afraid, and reacted that way. Other's will say the perp told her to remain quiet . But knowing all kids are different even within a family, I have yet to beieve that the child could or would wait that long to rush into the parents room..or stay in her room and yell for them to come in.But she very well could have.

As far as going to her Dad...I can't answer that either. Maybe Mr. Smart was a compassionate Daddy..who knows...all I know is I remember times when in the middle of the night I would hear.." M O M !!!! " and I wanted them to say...." D A D !!!! " .

I am sure they are doing everything they can to make life as normal as they can for her. This whole thing is so strange. Thanks for posting.

[Devil_Anse]

The Smarts do NOT equal the LDS church.

I agree with you on this.

I have never been without some suspicion of the family. Furthermore, it is possible to suspect that it was someone in the family, AND to also suspect Richard Ricci. That is how I have felt for a large part of the last 3 months or so. That is why I have said I wish I knew more about Ed Smart's relationship with Ricci. In my mind, I have really not ruled out some member of the family--or Ricci, or one of his associates, or some person that none of us have heard of.

Yes, Angela is reportedly a Mormon; I heard that Rick was brought up Catholic. Since I believe that he continued to commit crimes from time to time, I could hardly consider him a practitioner of any of the religions I have heard of--since they generally advocate honesty, and certainly do not officially approve of criminal activity. (No, religious institutions are not perfect.)

I often read other forums, and some of the posters I consider friends on one other forum in particular, are advocates for Ricci. They try to be fair about this, and it is obvious that they try to retain some objectivity. They do not seem to have an unrealistic view of what Ricci was.

I'm sorry to say that I feel nothing but contempt for Angela and Rick--except that I do feel sympathy for Rick having died at a comparatively young age, and consider it a sad waste. I have met too many people like Angela and Rick to have any pie-in-the-sky notions about them as noble victims. (I'm not saying that you have such notions.)

I have also met many people who lived similar lifestyles to that of the Smarts--or at least what we know of the Smarts. Frankly, I have found this second group to be more reliable than the people I've known who more closely resembled the Riccis. This is not to say that people in the same "class" as the Smarts are perfect, or that some of them are not doing some very wrong things, and hiding it.

I don't know, really, what that Deputy D.A. thinks of the Mormon church, I just found his remarks to be sort of glib, and I wonder why. I am sure if he has been a Deputy D.A. for any length of time (and I think he has), he has no illusions about any citizen being incapable of crime. Certainly, you can guarantee, he would probably have the same view I have of the Riccis. You won't find many prosecutors who have much liking for people who have criminal records.

I'm sure all members of the LDS church are not perfect; some may be out-and-out criminals, and be hiding it--but I do not believe, OTOH, that the majority of them are a bunch of hypocrites, either.

[varina davis]

Read the above statement again...the police downplayed the impact it could have on this case.....why?....cause they know what happened to Elizabeth? Just a thought.

And a very good thought, at that, Neenah.

[varina davis]

Devil !! You were a Deputy District Attorney, and you don't think that neighbors and friends, 40 -50 of them (Ed Smart's words) in the house and outside the house, pattering about in the dirt with their shoes...was a key point? Aren't cases built on FORENSIC EVIDENCE? Isn't that important in the gathering of information from the onset of the PD coming upon a crime scene?

Neenah, remember that Devil puts questions out as bait, casting about, so to speak, to see what bites. Maybe he deputy DA working this case?

[varina davis]

First time poster here, so be kind.

Great questions and welcome to this thread. I tend to think it's very possible MK told her parents very quickly and THEY waited a couple of hours before notifying anyone because they might have suspected who took Liz away.

[Devil_Anse]

Um...Neenah? Do I sense some sarcasm in your post?

It doesn't matter whether you believe it or not, but I have been a Deputy District Attorney, in two different jurisdictions. Sadly, this does not make me any more capable than most people of intelligence, to figure out what happened in this case--without more than media reports and endless armchair speculation. I'm not privy to any inside information in this case; wish I was.

But Neenah, if you will forgive my presumption, I do think it gives me some background to judge the potential of someone who had a 29-yr criminal record. Trust me, when you go into courtrooms over and over, and often see the same names on the docket, you lose all illusions about people who commit repeat offenses being "rehabilitated," and you continually marvel at how such people continue to actually have friends. But then you remember that some people are very generous-minded, and will be friends with anyone. I mean, Bill Clinton still has friends...