Elizabeth Smart Thread, 9/17/02 to ???

[Utah Girl]

Just thought I would start a new thread.

[scaredkat]

Cherry!!! and Bella!!! you both have been gone awhile. Welcome back.

[Yellowcat]

Your comments about Mr. Rollins' essay are exactly the way I felt. How can he be so arrogant as to pass judgement on a family when he's never been in that situation? Parents cannot watch their children 24 hours a day and it's ridiculous for him to make some of the statements he did; i.e. the children who suffocated in the family car in their own driveway, and Ed Smart didn't lock the house and set the alarm. Mr. Rollins acts as if accidents and kidnappings of children only happen in Utah and nowhere else because people elseware are not as trusting as people in Utah. He probably would never admit that maybe the reason Elizabeth's disappearance made all the headlines is that this type of thing is not the norm for Utah because of the exact opposite of what he is claiming. Maybe the reason there are so many more child abductons and murders in other states is because people in Utah tend to take the responsibility of parenting very seriously. To say that these parents and the people of Utah are somehow to blame because they have too much faith and are too trusting is beyond silly, it's just plain stupid. Accidents, sexual attacks, murders and abductions are happening everywhere, and yes, people need to be made more aware of precautions and safety measures for prevention, but Mr. Rollins is not the one to be passing out judgements.

[Devil_Anse]

You are so right. Especially when you point out: "maybe the reason Elizabeth's disappearance made all the headlines is that this type of thing is not the norm for Utah."

But it can surely happen anywhere, even in the safest of communities. As long as people remember that, perhaps they can take the proper precautions. I live in a community that has an average of less than one murder per year, yet I wouldn't think of leaving the doors unlocked at night, or when everyone is gone.

Especially for a New Yorker to preach to people in almost any other place, about being rife with crime, is the height of hypocrisy. I suppose we could fill up cyberspace with examples of atrocious crimes, accidents, child neglect, that happened in every state of the union.

And if Ricci made a habit of walking around in the rooms of young women at night, there are some parts of the country where he'd have been very, very dead long before he actually did die--and I don't mean New York, since they are so overly strict about citizens owning guns. (Isn't that the place that prosecuted the subway guy, Goetz, for a firearms violation--after he'd been repeatedly victimized?)

Also, people on here go on and on about The Big Bad Mormon Church. Whatever power the Mormon church might have, it could never begin to compare with the Mob--which is certainly a huge force in New York and New Jersey. Talk about getting away with murder!

[cookiedough]

I think Mr. Rollins is not facing the fact that no parent can protect his or her child all the time, from everything. No matter how vigilant a parent is, outside forces can intervene.

The degree of necessary vigilance frequently depends on the type a community in which a person lives. There have been no murders or kidnappings in my town for decades, if ever. Naturally, we are not as vigilant as someone who lives in an inner city environment needs to be.

Of course a major crime could happen here. We take normal precautions. Trouble is, those precautions won't stop a determined criminal. I cannot live as though I were in prison, while the criminals outside run amok. (Although I'd have to if I lived in an area which is saturated with criminal activity.)

[Devil_Anse]

Good point, about how the victims are forced into the position of prisoners.

I don't see how someone can, in one breath, say or imply that people in Utah are too naive and trusting, yet accuse them of being "smug and elitist" at the same time. I have a feeling that if Utahns were known for being suspicious, that that would be the complaint.

A little time living in one of the war zones such as New York, LA, New Orleans, Atlanta, D.C., Miami, Chicago (and on and on) should give anyone the proper attitude about never trusting strangers, and keeping doors locked even in a safe community!

[FR_addict]

Another big difference is that the Levy's hired at least one detective that we know about, when the police were at a stand still.

Another difference, I think the Levy's at first believed their daughter may have been missing on her own accord, probably recovering from a broken relationship. They were slowly made aware that their daughter wasn't coming back.

I think that's why the Levy's seemed a little blase at first. Later these parents couldn't have been more devestated.

[Devil_Anse]

Something sort of new on Chandra (from an internet forum--yes, what a reputable source!)--

Someone claims the bone marrow in part of the poor girl's skeleton tested with high levels of a pregnancy hormone. (Is it scientifically possible for this to be determined??)
Also, supposedly a friend of Chandra's overheard part of a phone conversation in which Chandra supposedly said, "you promised we'd be together, if you don't tell her, I will!"

And, to complete this wild story, supposedly there is a snippet of an answering machine msg with a man's voice on it, saying accusingly, "you promised you'd take care of it."

[sandude]

If they are to blame for their daughter's disappearing from her own bedroom, then that means we have to blame the parents of the little girl who was pulled from her bedroom and beaten with a hammer, and the parents of Jennifer Short, b/c someone violated their home, and the parents of Polly Klaas, too, b/c a man came right into Polly's bedroom. That sort of thinking is hysterical and wrong.

Excellent point. I have had some of the same feelings about Salt Lake as Mr. Rollins has. One of the charming things about the city is that it has an almost small town feel to it. That is changing as crime rates go up and the people are surely more on gaurd now than before the unfortunate events of this summer. I haven't lived there for many years so my opinions are somewhat dated but it always seemed to me that there was a rather large segment of the LDS population there that would benefit greatly by getting out of Salt Lake for a year or two to see how the rest of the world lives. This could be said about the people from any small town in the country, especially where there was a dominant faith. Some of my favorite people in all of the world live in Salt Lake but I also know some people who have blinders on as to what goes on in the world.

[freedox]

".....it always seemed to me that there was a rather large segment of the LDS population there that would benefit greatly by getting out of Salt Lake for a year or two to see how the rest of the world lives...... Some of my favorite people in all of the world live in Salt Lake but I also know some people who have blinders on as to what goes on in the world."

Thank you, sandude. You have very aptly stated one of the reasons that I have never completely discounted the "runaway" theory. It seemed to me that many were too quick to believe the adamant claims that Elizabeth had absolutely no interest in boys, that she preferred the company of her immediate family to that of her peers, that practicing the harp 3 hours a day was how she wanted to spend her time, and that she was totally happy with her life. In short, it seemed to me that those who failed to question that description of a 14 y/o girl "had blinders on as to what goes in the world."

I sincerely hope that LE has far more information in this case than has been made public, and I suspect that they do. At this point, the runaway/willing accomplice scenario provides the greatest hope of Elizabeth being found alive and well. Those of us who have continued to consider the possibility of a runaway have been attacked repeatedly for "lack of evidence." I think that informed statements such as yours provide at least a modicum of evidence for holding open that possibility.

[Utah Girl]

When I get outside of Utah, I'm always like "Oh yeah, there's a whole other world out there." I love living in Utah, but it is nice to get away every once in awhile.

[Utah Girl]

Except that Mr Rolling is, according to his biography, LDS. "A member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (commonly known as the Mormons), he is the father of three children and lives in the Greater Toronto Area."

[Devil_Anse]

Okay, well...but see Bella's Post 572, which describes Tim Rollins as "a New Yorker with an attitude."

He seems to feel at home in a lot of different places!

[Devil_Anse]

Sandude, your Post 608 is just the sort of fair answer I'd expect out of you. Don't sell yourself short on your experience of SLC being possibly dated, though, b/c it appears that your knowledge of the place is no more dated than is Mr. Rollins'.

[Devil_Anse]

I, for one, continue to speculate that maybe Elizabeth left the house willingly.

As for her being sheltered, maybe. I just know that I have never lived anywhere near SLC, and I have children, and with my hobby of reading about "true crime," I have a great awareness of the atrocities that can happen anywhere. Often I would broach the subject of, "how can we keep our little children safe, when there's this great big world out there, with all sorts of people in it?" Invariably, people--everyone from friends, to relatives, to people on a street corner, to...just anyone, would tell me, "oh, you shouldn't be so paranoid! You shouldn't SCARE your children and stifle their curiosity by telling them all sorts of tales of what a stranger could do, or warning them away from certain things, or worrying about letting them out of your sight..." I mean, it seems just about everyone has this attitude that "we shouldn't tell children too much" about the bad things in the world, we should "just let them enjoy their years of innocence."

Of course, I told them what I thought they ought to know, anyway!

[Utah Girl]

Thanks for pointing that out to me. His attitude does make more sense. I lived for a year in NYC, so I know the attitude. :)

[Devil_Anse]

Since people are talking about the sheltered atmosphere that supposedly exists in SLC, there's another irony they should be aware of.

Some of the most gullible, naive, easily-fooled people I have EVER met were juveniles who were in trouble with the law. I mean, these people are ignorant. You can tell them anything, and they'll believe it. Seems odd, considering that we always think of criminals as wily and cunning.

If Elizabeth was ever let loose in a library--and I'll bet she was--she found some things that made her do a double-take. You can't have a library, even a clean library, that doesn't contain some things in the books that will be strange to a young person poking around in the various books. I know, b/c I was such a young person, and our library certainly wouldn't have allowed anything "dirty" in it. Maybe that's why juvenile delinquents are so naive--I doubt very many of them browse around in libraries (since they invariably are flunking in school, or have dropped out.)

[Sherlock]

I would say the police are just doing a final review so they can close the books on it pending discovery of Elizabeth or her body. This appears to me to be identical to the Chandra Levy case.

[Devil_Anse]

I didn't care for Tim Rollins' attitude, but his theories are certainly logical--though there's nothing solid THAT WE KNOW OF to back some of them up.

As for New Yorkers, I have met some very nice ones lately, and I really think they are not all jerks who disdain the rest of the country. Also, the New Yorkers we saw on TV after 9/11 were loved by all. I think the various areas of NYC might even have that "everyone knows everyone" atmosphere at times--at least, it seems that way about Manhattan.

[varina davis]

Why must you be so intolerant of the views of someone, simply b/c they are not in lockstep with yours?

I'm NOT intolerant of sherlock's views -- just the way they're presented.

[varina davis]

I would say the police are just doing a final review so they can close the books on it pending discovery of Elizabeth or her body.

Maybe the "police" are doing that, but not the FBI.