Westerfield Jury Reaches Verdict DEATH

o | Joe Hadenuf

[Joe Hadenuf]

Death

[Valpal1]

The Bible does, yes and no.

Corporately, looking at justice and punishment in the O.T. No, the Bible does not equate/punish all sins/crimes equally in the temporal sphere.

Individually - in our relationship/seperation from our Creator, yes, as we are seperated from Him by sin, and all are restored by the same means, offered freely to all who accept.

I think you are all wet, trying to equate sexual immorality with murder.

[FourtySeven]

There is no such assumption as "his life pays for hers" underlying the justice argument.

Then what is it? Why is it more "just" to put him to death than it is to simply lock him away for the rest of his life, IF it's not simply to "re-pay a debt"?

[HamiltonJay]

I did not attack you. I basically asked you to observe parallels of types of butchery of innocents. I also told you right up front that I had no evidentiary proof of my supposition. It's a wild guess.

No it was a wild allegation and supposition, not a guess.. a guess is based on some sort of evidentury or previous experience. To assume/presume one fornicates, that one must have abortions is wholey illogical in modern times, even in the general case.

Fornication and adultery are not morally wrong simply because of my disapproval.

You are right, and there are many moral viewpoints of the world where they are not considered morally wrong. But even if one does believe they are morally wrong, that does not morally equate it with kidnap, rape and murder or a what? 7 year old girl.

The Bible, for example, does just that, doesn't it?

The bible certainly does not morally equate consentual sexual activities with kidnap, rape and murder of a 7 year old. In fact no religion considers sexual activities the equivalent of murder morally. They may both be sin, but not one world religion except perhaps Islam would infidelity be treated the same as murder in terms of its prescribed punishment... of course this religion also prescribes death to women who show their faces in public.. so I wouldn't use it as any sort of moral guidepost.

Don't believe me? Go tell a priest you committed murder in your confessional, versus telling him you committed adultery. (Which by the way has had different meanings over the years). And see which one gets you a harsher penance.

[Freedom2specul8]

wrt:your #600, I don't think I can add anything to it. I've seen people jump from one side of the fence to other through out the past few months..but were subtle in doing so.

It boggles the mind as to how people can just ignore the evidence they did have. Even feldman acknowledged it.

[A.J.Armitage]

Only in Heaven. On the planet Earth, in America, juries decide guilt.

Well, no. Objective reality exists. If I disagree with "established authorities", whatever they are, about a matter of objective reality, I'm not saying I outrank them, and their claim to outrank me is utterly beside the point. Guilt is, or is not.

I suppose since juries already decided they were guilty, we should've left all those people cleared by new DNA tests in jail. After all, they're "guilty". The jury said so, right?

"And yet, it moves."

[demsux]

Westerfield himself could have stood up and confessed and these yokels would still be claiming he didn't do it, and it really is just because the Van Dams were pot smoking swingers... that is truly the only reason these people continue their abject denial.

Sorry to butt in here, but your statement is just so stupid, it is beyond the pale...

[demsux]

BTW, HJ I have never seen you on a VD thread before, did you follow the trial or are you just a "bandwagon jumper"?

[HamiltonJay]

I have posted his on VD many times before, just do a search, you will find me posting way back during the trial earlier this year he was guilty as sin.

[HamiltonJay]

It boggles the mind as to how people can just ignore the evidence they did have. Even feldman acknowledged it

Denial can be a powerful thing... for whatever reason there are people who will ignore grey elephants in the corner rather that have to change their world view and deal with the consequences.

[Freedom2specul8]

The lifestyle of the van dams and the conspiracy theory have been *the* issues from a core few. As far as if Dw had confessed..I can easily see that the chances of someone saying he was "forced" to confess...would be high amongst a select few. (note I said select few...not all)

[HamiltonJay]

Sorry to butt in here, but your statement is just so stupid, it is beyond the pale...

Well you are entitled to your oppinion, but quite frankly that is the God's honest truth, some people are so vested in the fact the Van Dams were swingers and pot smokers that they have ignored or rationalized away all evidence that points completely and squarely at the sick, sadistic bastard named Westerfield who committed this heinous crime.

Even today as now that a verdict has been determined it is released that Westerfield was minutes away from a plea bargain to keep him from the death penalty in exchange for telling where he dumped the body when the body was discovered comes to light, people are still here professing Westerfield is an innocent angel. So call my statements stupid all day long, at least I can look Evil in the face and see it for what it is.

I just pray these people (Westerfield Defending Zealots) don't have children, because they obviously have no ability to judge character or facts.

GO ahead Suzy, go play with the man, he seems nice enough...

[Diamond]

In fact no religion considers sexual activities the equivalent of murder morally. They may both be sin, but not one world religion except perhaps Islam would infidelity be treated the same as murder in terms of its prescribed punishment..

Leviticus 20:10
" 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death."

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.
1 Timothy 1:8-10
8 "We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that law[1] is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers..."
Matthew 15:19
"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander."

That having been said, I think you both have me to rights on the gossip thing. I plead mea culpa to engaging in unfounded, baseless speculation re Brena Van Dam.

Cordially,

[FreeTheHostages]

I suppose since juries already decided they were guilty, we should've left all those people cleared by new DNA tests in jail

Yup. Until they win a Rule 33 motion for newly discovered evidence based on the applicable Rule 33 law, in which case a judge can release them. You see, the system which decides guilt -- our system which was constitutionally created (September 17 is Constitution Day, the day it was signed!) -- provides for the people to make laws and rules and the people have created such a law for newly discovered evidence.

So, once again, sorry to disappoint, but its our criminal justice system, not you, that decides the truth about guilt or innocence on the planet Earth. (Take heart. There are plenty of other jobs here on Earth available. But discerning the ultimate truth on guilty or innocence on the planet Earth, before Heavenly Judgment, is not an open position in the United States of America.)

[demsux]

..I can easily see that the chances of someone saying he was "forced" to confess...

Pretty far fetched. You just show me how he got past the alarm, dog and parents and I can switch sides quite quickly.

[demsux]

The lifestyle of the van dams and the conspiracy theory have been *the* issues from a core few

BTW, I DO think that in one way or another, their LIFESTYLE contributed to their daughter's death...directly or indirectly through their negliagence.

[demsux]

You do recall, don't you, that the VD's had the following people over to their home at about 2am the night in question:

Their drug dealer, Rich Brady

Their swap partners, Barb Easton and Denise Kemal

Keith Stone, a person they knew informally.

Additionally, it was testified to, in the trial, that Brenda and her friends were inviting TOTAL STRANGERS back to the VD home.

Just a coincidence?

[HamiltonJay]

Not gonna requote you, but on Leviticus quote.. old testement, superceded by the new covenant. Jesus never suggested death to an adulterer/adultress, and even took them under his guidance.

For the Matthew quote regarding the source of evil, this quote does not equate all listed sins as equivalent, just as evil. You attempt to list them as equivalent. There are many things that are sins, and there are many things that are evil, but that does not mean they are all abjectly equivalent in their magnetude. My argument with you has been over your attempt to equate voluntary sexual activity to kidnap, rape and murder of a child.


Timothy quote basically speaks of the application of law, not the equivalent of all punishment for all law breaking. No one argues the law is not for the lawbreakers... but nowhere does it suggest the punishment is the same under the law for all infractions.

Find me one modern Judeo-Christian based religion, or societal derivative, other than the fringe cults, that suggests that premeditated murder is equivlent to adult consentual activity in terms of magnetude or punishment? I abjectly oppose any notion that consentual sexual activity even if deemed immorral is equivalent to kidnapping and murder... there is no way you can justify this in the modern world or word.

God begat man with life and free will, man can choose to follow the path prescribed by God, or choose to ignore it. Ignoring the path God may desire for us is not nearly the same infraction as the wanton and willful destruction of the path and life of another. When one forces his will upon another, he is no longer using his will to ignore the will of God, but is superceding his own over Gods for another without their choice! There is absolutely NO WAY you can argue morally, ethically or spiritually they are equivalent. The are clearly not at any level. THe latter infraction is far far worse.

[FreeTheHostages]

Give it up: he's guilty.

[demsux]

Give it up: he's guilty.

Duh, I saw the verdict too

[demsux]

So you feel that their "lifestyle" had no bearing on this case?

What about being too stoned/drunk to check on your children, even after the alarm has been breached twice?

What about inviting total strangers to your home at 1:30am, maybe DW was invited too, we don't know.

What about having your drug dealer over to your house while your children sleep?

What about LYING TO LAW ENFORCEMENT for the first 17 HOURS that your child is missing, to hide your "lifestyle" and preserve your reputation?

Obviously, you would have no problem with these goings on in a home where your child is asleep.