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Elizabeth Smart thread, August 31-September 7, 2002

Posted on 08/31/2002 10:26:34 AM PDT by IamHD

My prayers go out to the Ricci family during this time. RR was sent up the river and used as a scape-goat. No evidence, whatsoever, linking him to the disappearance of Elizabeth.

May he rest in peace.


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To: sandude
Grabbing the seat covers would have been especially noticed by Moul. He has stated that he accidentally got a grease stain on those same seat covers on an earlier visit. Perhaps he wondered if Richard was upset about that. Finally Richard walks across the street with all of these items in his arms towards his friend and the blue van. Not the kind of thing that happens everyday that’s for sure.

Is it possible that Ricci was pissed off about the grease inside the Jeep? Maybe he removed the seat covers as the seats may have been tore up and he didn't worry about them getting grease on them and the seat covers were like new and he wanted to protect them? The newspaper may have been laid down to help keep the Jeep clean while Moul or whoever worked on it.
221 posted on 09/01/2002 10:02:00 PM PDT by stlnative
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To: spore-gasm
surreptitiously

We'll have to see if there's confirmation on this. I heard him say Ricci himself came in and told him he needed it for an emergency. I also heard him say he would never give a vehicle to anyone other than the owner, so I think if the car disappeared he would have called Ricci to check on it. If someone else took it don't you think Ricci would have come by sometime between May 30 and Jun 14 when he went to jail to see how it was coming along? And doesn't this remind you of the caper where he loaned his truck to his buddies who went and used it to rip off a food bank with it. Maybe he loaned the Jeep to Uncle Tom Smart.

222 posted on 09/01/2002 10:03:04 PM PDT by Sherlock
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To: Jolly Green
Ricci knew that his DNA was likely in the girls bedroom from the theft a year before - when he wasn't supposed to even be in the girls bedroom. He was covering his a$$ in the event that LE found his DNA there and tried to claim he was the abductor.

Ricci had worked in both bedrooms. He had worked in every room in the Smart house and he had just worked in the bedroom at the neighbors house that he burglarized that morning.

223 posted on 09/01/2002 10:07:35 PM PDT by Sherlock
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To: Sherlock
Sherlock I heard him say it both ways! I would rather believe what he said later on the Primetime Live Show, maybe he thought about the statement he made on Banfield's show earlier in the day and when he was asked later by the people on the Primetime Show maybe he thought he better state it like it really happened, that the Jeep just disappeared, never once on the PTL show did he say Ricci removed the Jeep or that he saw him take it after the first repair was done.
224 posted on 09/01/2002 10:08:37 PM PDT by stlnative
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To: sandude; spore-gasm
You might be gorgeous but that tin foil hat your wearing does nothing for you except make you look foolish.

s-g might be gorgeous, or it might be that s-g's vision in the mirror is as dilusional as s-g's vision of the facts in this case!!

225 posted on 09/01/2002 10:09:11 PM PDT by trussell
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To: sandude; Jolly Green
One thing I've wondered is why, when Thurber saw Ricci on the morning of Jun 5, he was sweating profusely the way he was. Why was he doing so much digging around the yard there. To bury a little pistol? That wouldn't be that much work.
226 posted on 09/01/2002 10:16:58 PM PDT by Sherlock
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To: sandude
By the way, you probably saw my post on her today. I'm not so sure she's the innocent victim anymore that's for sure.

What was this about?

227 posted on 09/01/2002 10:19:18 PM PDT by Sherlock
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To: brigette
No they heard a horrible sound that sounded like a rabbit being killed by a coyote.

No, that was the doctor up on Tomahawk. When you posted those photographs, which were excellent by the way, you assumed the doctor lived in the cul de sac behind the Smarts which is the end of Tomahawk. By 1) the fact the doctor heard a vehicle race by and 2) the direction the perp & ES left the house (out the front), the doctor would have lived at least a couple of blocks west. I think the perp took ES down the cul de sac and got in a vehicle near the end or parked on the street where it ends. They went right out of the cul de sac up to Tomahawk then took a left. For them to pick up speed and be making a racket the doctor would have had to have been at least a block or two up the street. This would have put them well out of range of hearing Lois scream as others have tried to suggest and when the doctor went out, when all the dogs were barking, he looked up north into the barren hills and didn't see anything and went back to bed.

The next door neighbors I'm pretty certain also heard a female voice in the middle of the night.

228 posted on 09/01/2002 10:29:01 PM PDT by Sherlock
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To: brigette; sandude; Jolly Green; Utah Girl
I would rather believe what he said later on the Primetime Live Show,

Since he never checked on the Jeep it's hard to believe he didn't take it or know it was taken and this hoax was being perpetrated for foul purposes. The key is if one of the two vehicles in Shriner's Hospital parking lot is one of Ricci's. Also we know Angela was lying, she did not know if Ricci left the trailer or not and she checked all the neighbors to see if they had seen him leave.

And Ricci wouldn't have been all sweaty digging up the yard when by his own admission he knew he was on a short list of suspects and the police would be arriving any time if he didn't have something he needed to hide. Also remember Thurber's description of the personality change, the normal, easy going, carry the conversation Ricci was nervous, confused, drinking beer at 8:30 in the morning when he knew the police were coming, complete personality change. It was this personality change and the strange things he said, especially mushy things about Elizabeth, that convinced Thurber Ricci was involved in the crime.

I must say if the police have nothing on a suspect other than Ricci I'm baffled. Why haven't they made sketches of the guy the milkman saw, the guy seen digging the rectangular grave, the guy the security man at Shriner's saw from 20 feet, the guy Moul saw, etc. etc. if they don't know who the accomplice is. Why, if they don't know who the guy is that left Moul's with Ricci, did they hold back the information they thought they left in a blue van when someone may have seen someone take a post hole digger out of a blue van. I think either there's a lot of bunk in today's articles or the SLCPD is incompetent or there's a police coverup. Or maybe Edmunds was washing his car every day at the same car wash at Moul's Garage Moul used to scrub the Jeep.

229 posted on 09/01/2002 11:03:43 PM PDT by Sherlock
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To: brigette
the grease inside the Jeep?

He said the grease on the seat covers was the previous time that he had brought the jeep in, sometime prior to him towing it in for repair on May 30.

230 posted on 09/01/2002 11:07:51 PM PDT by Sherlock
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To: brigette
Is it possible that Ricci was pissed off about the grease inside the Jeep? Maybe he removed the seat covers as the seats may have been tore up and he didn't worry about them getting grease on them and the seat covers were like new and he wanted to protect them? The newspaper may have been laid down to help keep the Jeep clean while Moul or whoever worked on it.

Good points Brigette. I do appreciate reasoned points that are opposite of my own. That is how we will get this thing solved. Your earlier post is most appreciated because it shows that Moul made contradictory statements to the media. What he said to the Grand Jury is what counts. I tend to agree with you that the PTL version is correct. The article today also is sourced to detectives that should know.

So we don't know who took the Jeep on the 30th of June. We can be sure that Richard returned it on the 8th and refused to admit that he ever had it in his possession during that week. Maybe he was trying to protect his seat covers but you'd think he would have gladly given those to the police if that were the case. If his friend was simply providing a ride you'd think he would have come forward by now. Angela surely would have known who this was. Your ideas of him being framed are possible but that would still involve him heavily in the crime even if it was just cleaning up somebody else’s mess. We also learned today that not only was Richard a cat burglar but he was in the habit of entering children’s rooms. As I said earlier, a very strange MO. We also have no explanation for his digging under Thurber’s trailer on the morning of the crime. My thoughts are that he was hiding the small black hand gun when Thurber unexpectedly came out of his trailer. The quick confessions point to someone who was trying to avoid a more serious charge.

And then there is Lois’ unexpected announcement in early August that Mary Katherine had recognized the voice of Elizabeth’s abductor. I’ve stated before that I think she picked Richard’s voice out of an audio line up and I’ll go over my thinking with you again if you’d like. If it was somebody else’s voice then that person would have percolated up to the top of the list of possible suspects. They didn’t specifically say it was Richards’s voice because they already had him in custody and divulging this would have prejudiced a potential jury. I might be wrong and we won’t know until they release this information. But from a logical point of view, it makes the most sense. Much has been said about Richard not having hairy hands. I think we need to remember that this description was coming from a 9 year old. What she would consider hairy may be different than what you or I may think. I also believe that she got this look as the perp stuck his arm under the blanket to wake Elizabeth up. So there is this man's arm an inch from your face. If he had any hair at all on his hands she may have keyed on it.

So I still feel that Richard entered the house that night and that Elizabeth did recognize him. Mary Katherine didn’t get a good enough look at his face to make that recognition. If she is in fact dead, it is anybody’s guess at this point as to how that went down. Perhaps we will never know and that is sad.

231 posted on 09/01/2002 11:10:18 PM PDT by sandude
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To: Sherlock
when Thurber saw Ricci on the morning of Jun 5, he was sweating profusely

Thurber saw him sweating, Moul saw him sweating, maybe Ricks just a sweaty kind of a guy. Seriously, in both instances I think he was afraid that John Law might show up at any second. I really think that Thurber coming out of his trailer that morning was a surprise as well.

232 posted on 09/01/2002 11:15:41 PM PDT by sandude
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To: Sherlock
If he did kill her I'm sure he made the final burial on Jun 8.

I don't believe Ricci had a history as a "killer." It was not in his MO. He shot back at a police officer after he was shot at. He was a burglar, thief and addict. He just doesn't fit the overall description.

233 posted on 09/01/2002 11:22:11 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: Sherlock
By the way, you probably saw my post on her today. I'm not so sure she's the innocent victim anymore that's for sure.

What was this about?

It looks like the Jeep was taken from Mouls without anybody seeing who took it. If this thing was as well planned as it appears to have been, then the conspirators would have had to take into account the possibility that Moul could call Angela up to confirm that Richard had retrieved the Jeep. That would have been problematic if she didn't know anything at all about the Jeep being needed for a job. Of course if she did know then there is no problem at all. I'm just saying that perhaps the innocent Angela made the original phone call to Moul's garage.

234 posted on 09/01/2002 11:23:44 PM PDT by sandude
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To: brigette
Is it possible that Ricci was pissed off about the grease inside the Jeep?

Is is possible Ricci just wanted to clear out the jeep because he knew he'd be a suspect just by having worked in the Smart home? And that anything in the jeep might look incriminating whether he was guilty or innocent?

235 posted on 09/01/2002 11:25:13 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: varina davis
I don't believe Ricci had a history as a "killer."

Well, why do you think he & his Jeep were all muddy and he removed the seat covers and had a machette at his waist and had all the windows rolled down and was sweating profusely and was in an ugly mood nervously looking over his shoulder and would talk to Moul like usual and later won't admit it was him so obviously didn't know who the guy across the street was? Bad hair day?

236 posted on 09/01/2002 11:27:08 PM PDT by Sherlock
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To: Sherlock
One thing I've wondered is why, when Thurber saw Ricci on the morning of Jun 5, he was sweating profusely the way he was.

Well, good heavens. The guy had hypertension, high blood pressure -- that can easily make one sweat even when not laboring.

237 posted on 09/01/2002 11:28:27 PM PDT by varina davis
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To: sandude
Of course if she did know then there is no problem at all. I'm just saying that perhaps the innocent Angela made the original phone call to Moul's garage.

I can't imagine that another woman would have been in something like this with him (and note I say him, I think he was in it up to his hairline from the beginning).

238 posted on 09/01/2002 11:29:57 PM PDT by Sherlock
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To: varina davis
Is is possible Ricci just wanted to clear out the jeep because he knew he'd be a suspect just by having worked in the Smart home? And that anything in the jeep might look incriminating whether he was guilty or innocent?

No, because he would have told them that story instead of confessing to a robbery and a burglary.

239 posted on 09/01/2002 11:31:24 PM PDT by Sherlock
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To: Sherlock
Why haven't they made sketches of the guy the milkman saw, the guy seen digging the rectangular grave, the guy the security man at Shriner's saw from 20 feet, the guy Moul saw, etc. etc.

Maybe they have checked all of these people out and cleared them. They don't have a responsibility to let us know who they have cleared. In Edmonds case they needed to because of the intense manhunt for him. As for the blue van I think that maybe they were hoping to find him on the QT and put him under surveillance in the hopes that he was in possession of one living breathing Elizabeth Smart. By the way, I really liked your description of how Thurber became convinced that Richard was involved.

240 posted on 09/01/2002 11:32:46 PM PDT by sandude
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