Elizabeth Smart thread, August 31-September 7, 2002

[IamHD]

My prayers go out to the Ricci family during this time. RR was sent up the river and used as a scape-goat. No evidence, whatsoever, linking him to the disappearance of Elizabeth.

May he rest in peace.

[Utah Girl]

My feelings aren't hurt, I was just stating a fact. Anyway, Cynthia Smart Owens was probably talking about circumstantial evidence. I too think the perp didn't work alone. As far as physical evidence goes, perhaps Ricci had picked up some new tricks in prison on not leaving physical evidence around after a crime. And then he gets caught by Elizabeth who wakes up to see him in her bedroom, an eyewitness to an armed burglary will put him away for life. And the saddest part of all, it did. And the above scenario is what I think happened, my supposition only.

[Utah Girl]

I hate to be morbid, but perhaps the perp did buy Elizabeth in a shallow grave, came back home that morning, then left to either move her body, or bury her in a more hidden place. Such gruesome thoughts, and I was just thinking about the Smarts. They have to live with such thoughts the rest of their lives if Elizabeth is never found. My heart goes out to them.

[Jolly Green]

But this driveway thing... this really bothers me. MK got a lot more viewing in than was previously believed.

I don't think you can conclude that MK saw Liz stumble in the driveway. It is possible that the dogs found a trace of blood and fiber that was determined to be recent and belonging to Liz. (For those of you that are going to say that blood can't be dated, save your breath/keystrokes. Old blood can't be dated. Recent blood can be.)

[Jolly Green]

You're famous, Green one !! LOL!!

Famous? I thought I was notorious, LOL.

I recall a post on FR a year or so ago claiming that all FR threads are indexed on Google. They even provided a way to search FR only. I saved it and sure wish I could find it. It would sure come in handy.

[Jolly Green]

Something to ponder:

I've been troubled by police comments that they were surprised that Ricci admitted the burglaries at the Smart and Smart neighbor homes. At least the ones I spoke with were stunned that he would admit his crimes. Today I figured out why and I hope other LE figured it out as well.

Ricci knew that his DNA was likely in the girls bedroom from the theft a year before - when he wasn't supposed to even be in the girls bedroom. He was covering his a$$ in the event that LE found his DNA there and tried to claim he was the abductor.

This doesn't exonerate Ricci, but at least explains why he confessed.

[sandude]

Streeetching, sandude, just how much conversation could there have been?!

How long does it take to say what I described? 10, 20 seconds maybe. We don't know what was said other than it included some kind of threat to either Elizabeth or the family. We also know that she went quietly and Mary Katherine did not alert her parents immediately. I find it quite plausible that the perp would have said something that would have either reduced Elizabeth’s fear or convinced her of a need to cooperate. Just as a bank robber tells the customers to cooperate and all will be fine, don't cooperate and you’re dead. Mary Katherine heard the same threat as her sister did and believed it to be true. She waited in her room convinced that Elizabeth would return safely at any moment. She finally lost hope and alerted her parent’s to what happened.

If you feel otherwise then you need to post your thoughts and I will respond in kind.

[sandude]

I hate to be morbid, but perhaps the perp did buy Elizabeth in a shallow grave, came back home that morning, then left to either move her body, or bury her in a more hidden place.

This is possible, especially the idea that he killed Elizabeth that night. But why hide the Jeep for a simple burglary. Any car would have done for that job. The Jeep was needed because of the human cargo he was going to be carrying. Perhaps it was a sex crime and he killed her right away hiding the body in a shallow grave as you suggest. That is far riskier than transporting the body in the Jeep to somebody’s garage. With all of the planning that appears to have gone into this I feel that they planned on keeping Elizabeth around for awhile. Perhaps for their enjoyment, perhaps for collecting a ransom, perhaps for both. Mary Katherine changed everything. Elizabeth was doomed no matter what. Maybe her witnessing the crime shortened the amount of suffering her poor sister was subjected to. I just can't go on typing this. I want so much for Elizabeth to come home to those who love her. I grieve so for this family.

[Utah Girl]

Well, I think the Amber alert derailed their plans. They didn't realize that it was in existence, the Amber alert was used for the very first time in Utah for Elizabeth's abduction. My theory is that the perp(s) were surprised by the alert, realized they had to get rid of Elizabeth fast. This whole case just breaks my heart, I'm willing to cut the Smart family a lot of slack for their comments and their demeanor. They've lost a child in a very horrible way, and they may never know what happened to her. I can't think of a worse scenario for a parent.

[sandude]

This doesn't exonerate Ricci, but at least explains why he confessed.

I think your probably right here JG. Only fear would cause him to openly confess to those crimes. I believe that he was probably in a panic mode as soon as he discovered that he'd been spotted later that morning as he was watching the news with Angela. By the way, you probably saw my post on her today. I'm not so sure she's the innocent victim anymore that's for sure.

[Sherlock]

I don't think he ever claimed that he actually saw Rick pick it up.

Yes he did, sandude, Moul said Ricci came in on May 30 and told him he needed the Jeep back for an emergency. Moul also said he never gives a vehicle to anyone other than the owner.

[Jolly Green]

By the way, you probably saw my post on her today. I'm not so sure she's the innocent victim anymore that's for sure.

She is a con artist in her own right. I saw one of the first interviews with her and felt quite sorry for her and even said so here on FR. I thought she was another victim in this tragedy. Then I found out about her own criminal record. I was conned and I'm sure a lot of people have been conned by her.

[Sherlock]

Sarcasm?- or truth. Several of us have read comments regarding Liz being pregnant also, so no need to worry about being sarcastic, is always a possibility. :-)

Please go to your sewer threads and take your garbage posts with you.

[Sherlock]

He stated that he liked Richard and he obviously valued him as a customer.

Yes, Moul likes Ricci, and so does Thurber, and they both say they think Ricci is a perpetrator in this crime.

[stlnative]

Ricci's West Valley City mechanic Neth Moul told police and a federal grand jury that Ricci surreptitiously took the vehicle from his lot May 30

Repeating: surreptitiously = he didn't see him take it. It could have been ANYONE with a set of keys to that Jeep.

Surreptitious = under seize, done, got, acting, etc in a stealthy way

sur·rep·ti·tious   Pronunciation Key  (sûrp-tshs)
adj.

1. Obtained, done, or made by clandestine or stealthy means.
2. Acting with or marked by stealth. See Synonyms at secret.

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[Middle English, from Latin surreptcius, from surreptus, past participle of surripere, to take away secretly  : sub-, secretly; see sub- + rapere, to seize; see rep- in Indo-European Roots.]

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surrep·titious·ly adv.
surrep·titious·ness n.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

---

Surreptitious \Sur`rep*ti"tious\, a. [L. surreptitius, or subreptitius, fr. surripere, subripere, to snatch away, to withdraw privily; sub- under + rapere to snatch. See Sub-, and Ravish.] Done or made by stealth, or without proper authority; made or introduced fraudulently; clandestine; stealthy; as, a surreptitious passage in an old manuscript; a surreptitious removal of goods. -- Sur`rep*ti\"tious*ly, adv.

Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

---

surreptitiously

adv : in a surreptitious manner; "he was watching her surreptitiously as she waited in the hotel lobby" [syn: sneakily]

Source: WordNet ® 1.6, ©


All along I have been trying to tell most of you that MOUL "did not see Ricci" take the Jeep, he said it disappeared off his lot. This was said clearly from Moul's mouth on Primetime Live. If someone wants to pay ABC the $20.00 to get the transcript of the show that aired the same day he was on Ashleigh Banfields show when it was recorded during the day and the Primetime Live show was recorded later on the same day, you will clearly see that Mr. Moul made conflicting statements. No Mr. Moul probably has no reason to lie about Ricci, but he did become an instant celebrity with the scoop on Ricci and he may not have gotten his story right due to all the excitement that was around him.

We know that Ricci did bring the Jeep back to Moul as Moul did talk to him that day, why have not heard from Moul about how Ricci acted the day he came to get the Jeep out after the first repair was done??????... It is very very possible that the Jeep was taken out by someone else as Moul never did see who took it. Ricci was in the habit of lending his cars out to friends... see todays news reports that verify this.

I personally feel some of you are holding on way too tight to what you think Moul saw. After saying all this... yes Ricci may have been involved and then again he may have lent his Jeep out to friend without knowledge of what his friend had planned. Then Ricci had to clean up the mess after the friend showed up with the Jeep and possibly a dead Elizabeth.

Maybe Ricci was set-up, He was part of a bank robbery in November 2001, one of his partners (Remington) gets caught right off the bat, but Ricci does not. Maybe Remington tells one of his buddies to set ol' Richard up, borrow his jeep, rob the Smart home and kidnap the Smart girl since Ricci is bragging all the time what an easy job the house would be. Ricci is the first person they are going to question. Ricci thinks his jeep is in the shop all this time, but in reality his so called friend took it out. Moul said on Primetime Live the Jeep just disappeared off his lot. Now we have a kidnapper with hairy hands, but Ricci doesn't have hairy hands and Ricci would have been ID by one of the kids. I am sorry but Moul is really not a credible witness and if he was why are the police not bring forth what they learned from Mr. Moul? All they have asked for is "IF" anyone saw the Jeep with Ricci in it between May 30th and June 8th or if the Jeep was seen WHO was driving it?

No I am not a Ricci cheerleader, but some of you are really missing some important facts in the case, you are not looking at it from both sides. As it stands the police did not find anything physical that points to Ricci, but whos to say they did not find Liz's dna or fibers in the Jeep and they also may have found someone elses DNA with hers in the Jeep that should not have been in the Jeep. Maybe this is why Ricci was never charged and the cops know he knows something and they hoped he would fess up to what he does know. Maybe Ricci did not tell what he found out after the fact, because he feared for Angela's life.

[Sherlock]

....Bella...

Yeah, I bet they tell Bella to get off all the threads she posts on, that's why she keeps winding up back here.

[Sherlock]

It would seem in a house the size of the Smart's home, MK would have had to follow her sister and the alleged kidnapper down the stairs, etc. to have "heard" a "yelp."

I believe the next door neighbor said they heard a female voice cry out in the middle of the night also.

[stlnative]

Jolly... I would say he confessed to the robbery after they had found the stuff in his home on wheels. His DNA would be anywhere in the house because he worked in the house, he did painting and other work in every room of the house.

[stlnative]

No they heard a horrible sound that sounded like a rabbit being killed by a coyote.

[Sherlock]

If Richard killed her that morning before going home where could he have hidden the body?

He didn't have time to bury her so he might have wrapped her in a blanket or just stashed the body somewhere for a while. Maybe at his friend with the blue van's place that picked him up on Jun 8. If he did kill her I'm sure he made the final burial on Jun 8.

[sandude]

Moul also said he never gives a vehicle to anyone other than the owner.

Yes, spore-gasm already brought this quote of Moul's to light. That means that one of the two stories is in error or Moul has said something different to investigators than what he told the media. This would have complicated things in court that's for sure. The one thing he is absolutely adamant about is that Ricci was the one who returned the Jeep on the 8th. I've seen this in several different interviews and he has so much detail about it that it is hard to believe it didn't happen as he claims.

Some may wonder why he remembered so much detail. I think it was because the circumstances surrounding the events on the 8th were odd, not quite right. Richard was agitated, dirty, and sweaty. He had a machete slung to his side. Grabbing the seat covers would have been especially noticed by Moul. He has stated that he accidentally got a grease stain on those same seat covers on an earlier visit. Perhaps he wondered if Richard was upset about that. Finally Richard walks across the street with all of these items in his arms towards his friend and the blue van. Not the kind of thing that happens everyday that’s for sure.

Besides the events of the 8th we have him digging under Thurber's trailer, volunteering that he committed crimes that were sure to send him to prison, and the possibility that Mary Katherine picked his voice out of an audio line up and you can understand why he was at the top of the list of potential suspects. The job now is to find those who assisted in this crime and to try to bring closure to the Smart family.