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To: Balto_Boy
Men have the power to put a stop to this, but are more interested in proving their manhood instead.

We are probably going to find out in not too many years whether you are right, and I suspect that we are going to find out that men's pre-marital sexual behavior has zero to do with whether government seeks to remove adult males from those human families they do manage to form.

A safe and effective male contraceptive is going to change the dynamics of the current situation in some funny ways. A "marriage strike" can be tolerated so long as government continues to enforce child support obligations. Women may not find it desireable, but it is tolerable. You are suggesting that men take this a step further and go on a "conception strike," thus placing the continuation of the society itself in peril. This would indeed get government's attention, but probably not in the way you expect.

There are hints in the debate over paternal DNA testing that government is less interested in tying child support obligation to biological parenthood than to men as a class. Were there to become available a cheap and effective male contraceptive, such that men with something to lose economically could take themselves out of the target environment (a much more likely form of 'conception strike,' in my view, than the widespread adoption of celibacy which you seem to be suggesting), I believe government's response would be to begin supporting the children of single mothers via the tax system. There would always be loser men out there who had nothing to extract in terms of child support who would be willing to serve as society's studs. All you'd have is bunch of frustrated, celibate males who got dinged anyway in the form of higher taxation.

My hunch is that what is going on is not fixable, at least not in a democratic society. This is a classic "tragedy of the commons" phenomenon in which it is in each person's individual short-term interest to continue pushing the society incrementally towards collapse. It is now in every man's short-term individual interest to avoid marriage. It is in every woman's short-term individual interest to seek ever-more onerous government intervention to extract child support from men, married or not. The whole thing just goes click-click-click like a ratchet, one baby and divorce at a time, toward a place no one wants to go.

It is easy to see how short-term political considerations and the application of endless band-aid fixes will take this society from where it is now toward nearly universal single parenthood by women, supported through the tax system by a government that has to become ever-more draconian in its collection methods, as men quietly opt out of the society altogether because it has nothing for them. That's not politically stable and it won't last all that long, but for the decade or two before it is overthrown, the government we have now is likely to become men's worst nightmare. At the time it will look to people like the only way, but it wasn't the only way. It's just that the choices to go another way had to have been made about twenty years ago. It's too late now, we're going this way.


143 posted on 07/06/2002 8:47:35 AM PDT by Nick Danger
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To: Nick Danger
We are probably going to find out in not too many years whether you are right, and I suspect that we are going to find out that men's pre-marital sexual behavior has zero to do with whether government seeks to remove adult males from those human families they do manage to form.

We don't need to wait a few years. Most children in single family homes were born out of wedlock. None of them would have been born without pre-marital sex.

You are suggesting that men take this a step further and go on a "conception strike," thus placing the continuation of the society itself in peril.

I'm only calling on men to face the reality that their concept of proving their manhood by nailing any willing woman is being used against them, but men are too obsessed with getting some to see it.

I believe government's response would be to begin supporting the children of single mothers via the tax system. There would always be loser men out there who had nothing to extract in terms of child support who would be willing to serve as society's studs. All you'd have is bunch of frustrated, celibate males who got dinged anyway in the form of higher taxation.

So men would provide the stud service, and then men in government would provide the support via tax dollars. Are men really that pathetic?

291 posted on 07/06/2002 11:49:04 AM PDT by Balto_Boy
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To: Nick Danger

Insightful post.


781 posted on 12/29/2005 2:15:19 PM PST by gogeo (Often wrong but seldom in doubt.)
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