Since you appear to be ignorant to the real state of the software industry and how it is affected by the H1B problem, why don't you take a look at this article I found on USENET a few months ago. It's not as long as Dr. Matloff's report, so you should find the time to read it in it's entirety...

______________________________ _________________

Where Did All The Jobs Go? - The H-1B Situation

I am a software engineer currently looking for work. My job skills are current. In fact, I filed a patent at my last employer. I have submitted hundreds of resumes for various positions. I have only had a few job interviews. However, those interviews were quite informative. For example, on a recent interview, I immediately noticed that the software managers and engineers were from other countries. This appears to be the situation at all the companies I have recently interviewed with.

I was aware that Congress had recently doubled the number of H-1B visas for skilled foreign workers. In fact, 1,000,000 H-1B workers will be employed in the U.S. by the end of 2002. That's right - one million people. That's a lot of jobs especially since unemployment is at record highs.

What is the H-1B program? If you don't know about it, you better learn about it quickly because it may be the reason you don't have a job. "The H-1B non-immigrant program is a voluntary program that allows employers to temporarily import and employ non-immigrants admitted under H-1B visas to fill specialized jobs not filled by U.S. workers."
http://www.dol.gov/dol/eta/pub lic/regs/fedreg/final/2000
122001.htm

Each company hiring an H-1B employee is required to file a Labor Condition Application (LCA). An LCA is an application filed by a company that wants to hire a foreign national to fill a position within the United States.

With this in mind, I wanted to determine how many engineering positions were filled by H-1B engineers at a given company. Since this should be public information, I went to my trusty search engine looking for a LCA database. For some reason, it does not appear that the INS (http://www.ins.gov) or other government web sites provide a LCA database. However, I finally found a web site which has a LCA database at http://www.zazona.com

The database link is at http://www.zazona.com/LCA-Data

Their advanced database search is very helpful. For example in the advanced search, select the state as California, enter a city as Santa Clara, enter the employer name as Hewlett Packard and enter number of records as 50 then press the submit query button. You can see the positions and salaries of the H-1B employees. Looking at the data, we are not talking about a few dozen positions. We are talking about literally hundreds of positions. This is only for the HP offices in Santa Clara. Go back and do the above search but leave the enter a city blank. You will see that Hewlett Packard employs hundreds and hundreds of H-1B workers. Moreover, we are not only losing engineering jobs but H-1B visas are being granted for almost any conceivable position. Just look at the LCA database to see what types of jobs are being denied to U.S. citizens.

This appears to be the only site with a LCA database so I wondered who created the site. There is an interesting article about its creator at www.sacbee.com/content/opinion /story/1094647p-1159082c.html

With the current economic conditions, many large firms have instigated massive layoffs. Many engineers have been unable to find work for months. As mentioned above, the H-1B program allows employers to temporarily import and employ non U.S. citizens to fill specialized jobs not filled by U.S. workers. Go back and look at the list of jobs filled at Hewlett Packard by H-1B employees. I personally know of many individuals who are qualified for those positions but are unable to find work. Something is seriously wrong.

I've been told by many permanent and contract hiring agencies that companies now prefer to hire H-1B workers and work them long hours at lower wages - knowing they won't say anything fearing they would lose their H-1B status. At my last firm, the engineering manager had his engineers working many weekends. When one of the H-1B engineers complained, he said that there were plenty of engineers in Taiwan that wanted his place. I have heard other engineers say that managers like to threaten H-1B engineers with losing their H-1B status unless they do exactly what they are told. I've also heard and personally noticed that many companies are hiring H-1B managers with the expressed purpose of having them fill engineering positions with H-1B engineers from their respective country. Many companies are finding this an inexpensive way to lower costs as discussed in a recent USA Today article titled "Tech Firms' Hiring Practices Ignore Idle Americans"
http://www.usatoday.com/usaton line/20011205/3673849s
.htm

Dr. Norman Matloff, professor of computer science at the University of California at Davis, also supports these findings.
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/ itaa.html

Someone wrote me to ask "Why do US citizens deserve the jobs more than H-1B workers?" Well, think about it. If tomorrow, 1,000,000 technical jobs in say New Delhi were suddenly replaced by American workers, the Indian government would be very upset. The problem is the sheer number of people since one million H-1B workers will be employed in the U.S. by the end of 2002. There needs to be a more balanced system in which everyone comes out ahead. Countries need to provide the infrastructure for their own engineers to develop businesses and find employment at home. Globalization should mean that software projects are jointly developed between countries rather than having everyone move here. The myth is that the U.S. has unlimited space but just look at the traffic congestion in most U.S. cities. What was initially a reasonable idea has grown into a monster of unreasonable size.

Another person wrote me to say "If economics is the corporate motivation, isn't it more effective to take the entire division offshore? You don't need any H1-B visas for that." You have to remember there is a good reason that everyone is coming here rather than starting companies in other countries. The infrastructure of roads, legal systems, communications and schools does not exist in most countries. This infrastructure exists because U.S. taxpayers have been paying for it over many years. If companies had to build a similar infrastructure offshore, the cost would be prohibitive for them. The H1-Bs use our schools, roads, etc. but have not had to pay taxes over many years for their construction. Hence, citizens paid for the schools and roads which companies use for H1-Bs to replace citizens. So companies and H1-Bs get a free lunch. I am not saying we should not have any H-1Bs, the problem is that we are talking about hundreds of thousands of H-1Bs. This is having a major impact on the technical labor market.

The U.S. is one of the few countries which now offers unlimited access to its job market at the expense of its own citizens. While going to college, if I had any idea that most of the engineering positions would be taken by
H-1B labor, I would never have become an engineer. I advise young people not to become involved in engineering since companies find it easier to hire less expensive H-1B labor. The H-1B managers prefer to hire more H-1B labor - it's only human nature - so you have a vicious cycle. The end result is that U.S. citizens need not apply. This is the situation for the majority of companies in my area.

The other issue is that U.S. engineering firms are no longer hiring African and Hispanic Americans. I've noticed that many firms with H-1B managers have no African and Hispanic Americans on their staff. We need to hire minority Americans at home before we run off and hire everyone from elsewhere.

I believe with the current economic conditions the H-1B issue will become a very important topic in the coming months. Frankly, the media and press have not discussed the seriousness of this subject. Why? I believe they did not have the tools and databases required to see the size of the problem. Fortunately, the LCA data is now available at (http://www.zazona.com). You can now determine how many and what type of jobs are being denied to unemployed U.S. citizens at a given company and location.

The H-1B law says it is to "temporarily import and employ ... specialized jobs not filled by U.S. workers". Thus, the law was intended for "temporary" rather than permanent labor. The law was clearly not intended to deny U.S. citizens jobs but this is precisely what it is doing during this difficult economic time. What needs to be done to correct this grievous situation?

Congress needs to enforce the law by requiring companies to provide immediate employment to qualified unemployed U.S. citizens if an H-1B employee is filling a position a citizen is qualified for. When a company has layoffs, Congress should force companies to obey the law by discharging H-1B employees before U.S. citizens. It's the law. Whether Congress enforces the law is another matter.

It is ironic that the same corporations displaying football
field size American flags are the worse offenders. They are making the technology sector as dependent upon foreign labor as we are dependent upon foreign oil. Because of their lust for profits, our government, banking, financial and technology systems are now heavily in the hands of non citizens. Companies are using the system to their own advantage while pitting U.S. employees against H-1B employees and cruelly hurting both.

If the current H-1B situation is not immediately changed,
U.S. citizens will abandon the engineering field. Think about it. You just lost your job and go to the LCA database to learn that 25 H-1B employees are still working in your position. You will not be a happy camper. What can you do to help?

Email this article to all your friends.

Encourage them to look at the LCA database.
http://www.zazona.com/LCA-Data/
The job they are losing may be on the list.

Sign the petition. You will find a petition to send to your
congressional representatives at
http://www.zazona.com/H1BPetit ion/P/petition.html

Your most powerful action is to write your U.S. Congressperson and Senators. Remember, H-1B employees cannot vote but as a U.S. citizen, your vote counts. Even though powerful companies have heavily contributed to your congressional leaders to keep the H-1B laws in place, companies cannot vote - only you can. Don't let your job be eliminated next.

You can find your congressional representative at these
links.
Your Congressperson
http://www.house.gov/writerep/
Your Senators
http://www.senate.gov/contacti ng/index_by_state.cfm

Don't forget to both email and make a phone call to your
local Congressperson.

Write the business and political editors of your local
newspaper.

The following academic articles should be of interest:

Dr. Norman Matloff is a professor of computer science at
the University of California at Davis
http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/ itaa.html

August 5, 1999 Testimony of Gene A. Nelson, Ph.D.
http://www.house.gov/judiciary /nels0805.htm

Thank you for your support.

Unemployed Engineer

Last time I went looking for work, I sent out thousands of resumes, and literally had to hire an answering service to keep up with the calls. Those were the days.

As you say, those WERE the days. The time to do something about this problem is NOW. Unless something is done soon, you may just find out for yourself how easy it is to find a job as a software engineer today...

Yup. And don't forget to add Motorola to that list. They are shipping their software writing to India lock stock and barrel. And not just programmers. Now they will be spending $10 billion on not just new semiconductor fabrications operations in China, but the associated R&D labs will also be built there. Motorola is purportedly getting a $50 billion worth of comparative value for its $10 billion investment abroad. Meanwhile it continues to close up shop in the U.S. The de-industrializing of the U.S. that is going on today will make us weaker than France at the current rate.

The de-industrializing of the U.S. that is going on today will make us weaker than France at the current rate.

Wouldn't that be something, the United States the recipient of FRENCH foreign aid. I wonder how generous they'd be?

You are right, this is getting WAY out of control, and it is destroying not only the economy, but might just eventually destroy our entire way of life.

Now they will be spending $10 billion on not just new semiconductor fabrications operations in China, but the associated R&D labs will also be built there.

Isn't that special. Where are all of those that kicked and screamed when CLINTON was allowing all of our high technology to go to China? I'm sure the Chinese are extremely greatful for the current administration to allow this to take place.

If companies are willing to hire foreign workers over domestic ones, it must be because they think they are getting a better deal. If foreign workers were so bad, this would quickly be known, and there would be no demand for them.

There are really two aspects to this issue. One of them is the one you described above: if companies are willing to pay money for the work these people do, they can't be that stupid. The other aspect is the one that FormerLurker has been pushing: companies might employ these people only out of political correctness--to keep the Leftist diversity police at bay.

As you may have already recognized, both of these lines of reasoning lead to the same conclusion: let the companies decide for themselves rationally, rather than have the government--or the Leftist trendsetters--tell them what to do.

As for the possibility of Communist spies infiltrating the country in the guise of software developers, I think the threat may very well be real. Any sort of visa application from a national of a Communist country should be evaluated with a healthy dose of suspicion, and with a preference to err on the side of caution. If that means no Chinese developers at all, well we're sorry, just shut up and take it.

The other aspect is the one that FormerLurker has been pushing: companies might employ these people only out of political correctness--to keep the Leftist diversity police at bay.

Actually, what I'm saying is that this influx of cheap labor is motivated by greed. Those companies that are laying off thousands of US engineers and replacing them with cheap foreign help display absolutely no concern over the long term ramifications of such a policy. In fact, the reason the economy is in the gutter right now is primarily due to the enormous number of engineers out of work. A snowball effect appears to be taking place, and it doesn't appear to be stopping.

Burst my bubble? Now, come on did you really read his entire bio? Everyone on this thread should, httpp://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu /matloff.html. After reading it let me know how many paragraphs you got through before you fell of your chair to the left.

First, the only item I saw that might lead me to beleive he had ever employed anyone was his stint as a software developer, but that doesn't mean employeer.

Next, outside of a almost perfect far left resume. I see one of his buds is our most respected Wen Ho Lee, and a Mr. Luh fired from NASA, perhaps he was one of those sorry foreign engineers you talk about. Mr M thinks they are victims

I will get to my final one after I relate a story. This past Christmas I was at my wife's office party where I ran into a Chinese couple. I got to talking and realized the husband was a big name in the software business, I am sure many would recognize it. I did and am not in the business.

We hit it off and got into a rather deep conversation. He told me he came here on a student visa just before T. Square. His wife, (girl friend when he left) was still finishing her nursing degree. He said that they knew if they married before he left that she would not be allowed to leave the country. So when he had finished his first year here she was finished with her degree. He found her a sponsor under H1B and she came. They were married, and when the authorities in China heard, they beat the hell out of her parents, many times over about a 6 mo period to try and get him to come back. The parents told them that they would take the beatings and not to ever return. He added that the Chinese are not going to loose their best to the US.

He went on to say that he and his wife have been told that if they ever come back for a visit as American Citizens they will not be allowed to leave ever. He also went on to tell me that now the Chinese are very carefull to be sure that they are holding enought of any abroad students relatives to insure that they will be back. I haven't heard anyone complaining about all the H1B's for Mainland China, are there any? Are you getting the picture?

I see Mr. Matloff is developing lots of software for the Chinese, in case you missed it, fourth paragraph of the bio.
It also sounded like rather powerfull stuff, but maybe you can tell me, it's not my field. Did it ever occure to you that perhaps there is another agenda at work here?

Since the Mainland Chinese are going to keep their best, and requiring most Multi Nationals to locate R&D in China as a condition of doing business wouldn't it be to their advantage to see to it that we are unable to get the best from any other country? Now I am not saying that all H1B's are the best I would suspect only 5%, but with China's 5 to 1 population advantage over us we will have to draw on that 5% best from all over the world to keep ahead of them in our last hope, R&D. Now wouldn't it be to their advantage to shut down any program we have that might do that for us?

I see almost nothing in his bio that indicates he is working for Americans as much as he is working for the Chinese. Perhaps you can show me the error of my thinking.

Since your link didn't work, I figured I'd go to the original link I posted and post his biography here for all to see..

Biographical Sketch

Norman Matloff
Department of Computer Science
University of California at Davis
(530) 752-1953
matloff@cs.ucdavis.edu

Dr. Norman Matloff is a professor of computer science at the University of California at Davis, and was formerly a professor of mathematics and statistics at that university. He is a former database software developer in Silicon Valley, and has been a statistical consultant for firms such as the Kaiser Permanente Health Plan. He has published numerous research papers in computer science and in theoretical and applied statistics, in fields such as parallel processing, data security, computer networks, and statistical regression analysis. He is the author of one textbook in computer science and another in statistics.

Dr. Matloff is a former appointed member of IFIP Working Group 11.3, an international committee concerned with database software security. His work on optical multiprocessor computers was awarded a U.S. patent.

He has been a recipient of the UC Davis Distinguished Public Service Award, in recognition of his work on social issues such as immigration and age discrimination (especially in the computer industry), his work in support of affirmative action, and his defense of Asian-American scientists who have been discriminated against in our national laboratories. He also has been the recipient of student-sponsored awards, Professor of the Year (Computer Science Dept., twice) and Outstanding Faculty Adviser (campus-wide).

Professor Matloff is also the author of several popular software packages, such as: KuaiXue, a Chinese-language software package; JSim, a Java-based discrete-event simulation program; and MulSim, multiprocessor simulator. He is the author of a number of widely-used tutorials on computer topics, such as: the Unix operating system; Linux (introduction to installation and use); tips on program debugging; and the LyX word processor.

Dr. Matloff also writes about social issues such as immigration, affirmative action, and age discrimination. He has served as an expert witness in litigation regarding the age discrimination issue in the software industry. He has presented invited testimony to the U.S. Senate and House of Representatives on a number of occasions, and his advice has been solicited by the federal Department of Commerce, Department of Health and Human Services and State Department, as well as the State of California Little Hoover Commission. His writings on immigration have been used as course materials at Stanford and Cornell Universities.

Dr. Matloff frequently serves as an invited panelist on computer industry hiring practices, in forums sponsored by industry, academia, government and public-affairs groups, such as the Stanford University Computer Project Conference, the Boston University Workshop on Migration of Foreign Scientists and Engineers to the United States, the ITAA/Dept. of Commerce Convocation, the Commonwealth Club of San Francisco, the Gartner Group Application Development Summit, MEPTECH, Silicon Valley Power Breakfast, Software Development Expo, the California Governor's Older Worker and Exemplary Employer Conference, etc. His recommendations on careers in the computer field has been occasionally sought by writers of career-advice columns, and syndicated columnist Joyce Lain Kennedy features Dr. Matloff's e-newsletter on career issues in her books, Resumes for Dummies, Job Hunting for Dummies and Cover Letters for Dummies.

Prof. Matloff also is often invited to speak to student groups, such as at UC Berkeley, the Stanford University Law School, and the Harvard University Law School Asian Pacific American Conference on Law and Public Policy. He has also given invited speeches at the high school level, such as "testifying" on the issues of immigration and affirmative action at the Berkeley High School Mock Congress.

Dr. Matloff has written articles (in many cases by invitation of the magazine or newspaper) for the New York Times, the Washington Post, Forbes Magazine, the Los Angeles Times, the Public Interest, the New Democrat (a publication of the Democratic Leadership Council), the National Review, and so on.

Professor Matloff has been interviewed or cited by virtually every national news outlet in the electronic and print media, such as the NBC Nightly News, ABC's World News Tonight, the CBS Evening News, CNN, NPR's All Things Considered, the PBS Newshour, CNBC, the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, the Washington Post, Mother Jones, the New Republic, Time Magazine, the Wall Street Journal, Forbes Magazine, Investor's Business Daily, Business Week, US News and World Report, Science Magazine, Computerworld, and numerous others at local levels. He was the subject of a lengthy profile article in Salon online magazine.

Professor Matloff has been active in Chinese communities for over 20 years. His wife is a Chinese immigrant who works as a software engineer, and they are raising their daughter to be bilingual. He has also served as an instructor in adult ESL programs in San Francisco's Chinatown, both as a volunteer and as an employee.

In 1995 former University of California Regent Lester Hsin-Pei Lee appointed him to the Committee for Rational Relations with China,. In 1999 Dr. Matloff was invited to join the Steering Committee of the Dr. Wen Ho Lee Defense Fund; the committee, whose members include former UC Berkeley Chancellor Chang-Lin Tien and UCLA Asian-American Studies Center Director Don Nakanishi, is concerned that racial factors may have been involved in Dr. Lee's being terminated from his position at Los Alamos National Laboratories. Prof. Matloff has been outspoken in defense of Chinese-Americans who are victims of discrimination; see for instance his 1995 article on Dr. Raymond Luh, an immigrant engineer from Taiwan who suffered racial discrimination when he was fired from his job at NASA Ames.

A speaker of Chinese (Cantonese and Mandarin), Dr. Matloff has been interviewed by the two main Chinese-language newspapers in North America, (Sing Tao Daily) and (World Journal). He also conducted a reader survey for Sing Tao, and has been a guest on Bay Area Chinese-language TV and radio programs. He has been quoted on Chinese-American community issues by the New Republic, the San Jose Mercury News, AsianWeek, and so on.

Dr. Matloff is a former chair of the faculty affirmative action committee at UC Davis (click here for their annual report for that year), as well as a member of the corresponding statewide UC committee, and has been active in minority-oriented programs such as MAP, MORE and the Graduate Minority Forum. He has proposed a novel system for UC admissions, which is merit-based and would not take race into account but which would substantially increase racial diversity at each UC campus. See his Los Angeles Times op-ed, and his more recent op-ed in the San Francisco Chronicle, presenting the case of Lowell High School, a highly selective public "magnet school" in San Francisco, as an illustration of the need for, and potential benefit of, his proposed admissions policy. His ideas in those articles have been used by Urban League president Hugh Price, civil rights advocate Lani Guinier and UC Berkeley ethnic studies professors Ling-Chi Wang and Ronald Takaki.

First, the only item I saw that might lead me to beleive he had ever employed anyone was his stint as a software developer, but that doesn't mean employeer.

Uh, whoever claimed that the professor ever employed anybody? Not necessarily that he hasn't, but that claim was never made. He performs RESEARCH on trends in the software industry, and is considered an expert on the statistical analysis of those trends.

Next, outside of a almost perfect far left resume. I see one of his buds is our most respected Wen Ho Lee, and a Mr. Luh fired from NASA, perhaps he was one of those sorry foreign engineers you talk about. Mr M thinks they are victims

He was invited to join a committee looking into possible racial discrimination against Wen Ho Lee, he was not, as you assert, his 'bud'. I am unfamiliar with the Luh case. In case you're thinking that I'm against hiring ANY foreign engineers, that's not what I'm saying. I'm against the CURRENT H1B policy that allows just about ANY warm body from another country to come here and replace American workers. The FORMER policy required that the individual be considered an EXPERT in their line of work.

Now that I think of it, I suppose it would be an idea to post a little something about the Luh case that I just read..

Dr. Luh, an immigrant from Taiwan, gave up his legal battle a few months ago to overturn his 1992 firing by NASA Ames in Mountain View. Luh's firing appears to be the result of his exercising his right to free speech on the Internet---ironically, in which he opposed Pelosi's bills which would revoke China's Most Favored Nation (MFN) trade status if China failed to improve its human rights record.

NASA claims that Luh was terminated because his use of government computers to participate in an Internet electronic discussion group on China was unrelated to his work. Yet, in internal government documents obtained by Luh via the Freedom of Information Act, NASA admitted that it is common for employees to participate in nonwork-related Internet groups; it is a form of recreation (at no cost to NASA), no different from NASA's tennis courts. Indeed, NASA continues to make those groups freely accessible on NASA computers to this day.

So, it appears that Dr. Luh, a immigrant from TAIWAN, had offended somebody by posting articles AGAINST MFN for CHINA. Gee whiz, I wonder if he was a FREEPER!

He went on to say that he and his wife have been told that if they ever come back for a visit as American Citizens they will not be allowed to leave ever. He also went on to tell me that now the Chinese are very carefull to be sure that they are holding enought of any abroad students relatives to insure that they will be back. I haven't heard anyone complaining about all the H1B's for Mainland China, are there any? Are you getting the picture?

A) There are obviously H1Bs from China, as you just described one.

B) How do you know for sure that this fellow you were talking to was telling you the truth? Not that I'm saying it's not, but how would you know for sure?

C) I'm sure that in at least SOME of cases of H1Bs from China, they are here as spies for the Chinese, and as such, would not have ANY problem with the Chinese government for coming to work here in the US..

I see Mr. Matloff is developing lots of software for the Chinese, in case you missed it, fourth paragraph of the bio.

By 'lots of software', are you referring to the ONE Chinese language application he wrote called KuaiXue? You know, the one that teaches the Chinese language?

It also sounded like rather powerfull stuff, but maybe you can tell me, it's not my field. Did it ever occure to you that perhaps there is another agenda at work here?

I guess it'd have to be in order to teach such a difficult language such as Chinese. Another agenda? Yeah, maybe he's working for the government (hint: who would be interested in understanding Chinese text and communications?)

Since the Mainland Chinese are going to keep their best, and requiring most Multi Nationals to locate R&D in China as a condition of doing business wouldn't it be to their advantage to see to it that we are unable to get the best from any other country?

So what are you saying, China is forcing us to accept their H1B workers?

Now I am not saying that all H1B's are the best I would suspect only 5%, but with China's 5 to 1 population advantage over us we will have to draw on that 5% best from all over the world to keep ahead of them in our last hope, R&D. Now wouldn't it be to their advantage to shut down any program we have that might do that for us?

Not if those they are sending are here to collect data and return home with it.

I see almost nothing in his bio that indicates he is working for Americans as much as he is working for the Chinese. Perhaps you can show me the error of my thinking.

You falsely stated that the professor has written a plethora of applications for the Chinese, where in that context, he hasn't. He wrote a application that teaches the Chinese language, big difference. Additionally, he has performed much in the way of presenting important issues to the software community, as evidenced by the following excerpt..

Dr. Matloff also writes about social issues such as immigration, affirmative action, and age discrimination. He has served as an expert witness in litigation regarding the age discrimination issue in the software industry. He has presented invited testimony to the U.S. Senate and House of Representatives on a number of occasions, and his advice has been solicited by the federal Department of Commerce, Department of Health and Human Services and State Department, as well as the State of California Little Hoover Commission. His writings on immigration have been used as course materials at Stanford and Cornell Universities.

Finally, although the professor, who does in fact work in a highly left leaning environment, isn't a radical leftist as you describe. He might not be a member of the John Birch society or subscribe to many conservative agendas, but that doesn't nullify every piece of work this man has done. You are engaging in character assination, as you have apparently given up on discussing the facts.

great thread!!

Thoroughly fascinating! I, for one, would love to see the day when I call my (insert company here) and get to talk to a human, one that is predisposed to the english language, not the heavily laden dialect of a non-american speaker. While this might be considered rascist by some, I am not. I have several friends from other countries who have made the effort to learn english, and I do not fault them for their accent, just as I would not fault a Texan in Minnesota or a Bostonian in California. What I do fault is the laziness of some Americans to do any job that needs doing. One of the reasons we need to look at this is that Iraj (a friend) now owns 5 motels in Kansas. He did the jobs that are beneath most Americans; janitor, burger flipper, ditch-digger, etc. This was after he graduated from college with a masters in Business. The youth of today are saying, "Here I am, where is my job at the top of the ladder?" This is an actual crisis, in that we are starting to reap what we have sown. The arrogance that most americans show to non-americans is going to become humility when they own us. I am afraid that you are only too correct my friend.

This is an actual crisis, in that we are starting to reap what we have sown.

The inference you are making is that somehow or other this is all the fault of the American worker. There is a bigger picture. It is true that "some" Americans expected to quickly realize the "American" dream of wealth and riches, however there are millions of Americans who "were" very content making a modest living, paying taxes, and owning there homes. The real issue at hand is based on a very simple reality. In a nutshell:
There is no way that American engineers (software, hardware ect.) can compete on a global scale with workers from China, Russian, India,Taiwan ect..
Engineers in these counties work for $200 a week. This is not even the minimum wage in America, engineers in these counties are being paid less than a teenager in Burger King in America. It is very clear that within a few years there will be no software, hardware jobs in America. Just today Motorola announce another 7,000 lay-offs, at the same time it announce it is expanding its silicon foundry alliance with Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing. Also Microsoft just announced that it is going to invest $750 million in China. Is anyone talkink about this in the media? Wouldn't you say that this may be part of the problem behind our current economic downward spiral? I do not think Americans realize the impact this will ultimately have on our economy.

I acknowledge your expertise.

The answer is to get rid of the lazy assed Americans and find good, hardworking Americans.

They are out there.

FWIW, I train foreign medical grads and American medical grads.

There are lazy and industrious foreigners and Americans.

Some of the dumbest and laziest residents I have ever seen were foreigners, from third world countries.

The thing that makes the Americans better is that they will demand the market salary, whereas the foreigners will take any and all crap from an unreasonable employer, including poor wages.

And that hurts America, bad.

But I also know that Americans will rise to the occasion, and will work their asses off if properly motivated.

Hi christine11, and many thanks, please keep me on your list -- you see an awful lot that I miss. -- caddie

will do, caddie! and thank you! ;)

christine11, you are a fine example of American womanhood.

(If, in fact, you are female, which I assume because of your screen moniker, but, hey, you never know these days ;).

Warm regards, caddie

i am, indeed, woman (hear me roar). ;)

Sorry I haven't had time to get back to you, gotta work for a living.

I want to go over a couple of things from your post, and then give you some detail outside of the Prof's statistical anylasis.

My comment about the Arm Chair General stands. While stat. anyl might be of some comfort to those who wish buy into their supporter's bend on the stats, if unbiased it only tells you what happened NOT THE FORCES THAT ARE DRIVING IT.
Thus, I put little faith in a paper that is devoid of the driving forces from the otherside of the fence.

Let me give you a few examples. Under "WHAT EMPLOYERS SHOULD DO" 12.3. "Hire on general talent not specific skills" "Do not shunt competent programmers to positions like customer support" "Look for applicant who looks promising but somewhat HIGH RISK" Then suggests hiring a PhD in physics who has done some programming. "Place less emphysis on grades and prestige of institution" If most employeers followed the Prof's advice there would be a lot more unemployment of Americans.

12.4 "What Recruiters should do" Here he wants me to hire a person to find a person to fill a specific job, yet come back with another HIGH RISK and the recruiter cut his fee. Dream on.

One question regarding Mr. Luh

Luh's firing appears to be the result of his exercising his right to free speech on the Internet---ironically, in which he OPPOSED
Pelosi's bills which would REVOKE China's Most Favored Nation (MFN) trade status if China failed

So, it appears that Dr. Luh, a immigrant from TAIWAN, had offended somebody by posting articles AGAINST MFN for CHINA. Gee whiz, I wonder if he was a FREEPER!

I have to wonder if he was for or against before I wonder if he was a FREEPER. Please read or post with care it does make a difference.

Now don't get me wrong, the Prof does have a few ideas, internship is a good one. I had thought the industry was doing that anyway. I am not going to go into anymore examples regarding the rest of his paper, because I have some ideas from the other side that I think are worth everyones thoughts.

In a nutshell, I think the software industry for the the most part is a industry ready to move offshore very quickly. This wouldn't be the first time it has happened to us, and won't be the last. I think that focusing on the H1B program as a scapegoat ignors both the lessons of history in other industries, and elimination of the program now that it is in place will cause the industry to move quicker.

Lets take a quick look at history. The Atomic Bomb, we had it first, and I might add it was for the most part a Jewish immigrant development. Lost it in two years to Russia and then most of the rest who wanted it had it in the next 30. Had we offered all those foreigners in nuclear physics lots of money and a soft life we might have been able to keep it a lot longer, but not forever. Of course a few like Russia and China used force and restriction to keep their physicists.

Now, remember the electronics industry from 1950-1975? We went from all out production, sometimes three shifts a day. Some production workers were at close to $13p/h big money, and a car cost about 3K. Then along came the Japs at 1/10 the rate base. Production plants closed, only to open a day later. In most cases owned by the former plant management now working as "contractors" for the manufacturer, and the same production workers at 1/2 pay. We even moved plants to the south for low cost workers.

Then in our last desperate effort, the plants closed and farmed out assembly to home workers on a piece basis. Labor dept, IRS, etc gave the final death blow by changing the definition of contractor and EPA regs. The industry went over a period of about 5 years. As a side benifit, engineering, and semiconductors started to go too.

Now with software. It sounds like most of your competition is from India. FACTS.

Pop 1.029B India
.278B US

Lit rate 52% 535,080,000 IND Educated pop
97% 269,717,000 US

Per cap GDP $1,800 IND
33,900 US

Langu Offical Hindi/Associate offical English

Software training is a low cost subject to teach in a poor country. A few computers, and most of the rest is paper. Now I am not saying that they turn out a quality product, but they can turn out twice as much at about 6% the wage base.

So why hasen't the industry run like scalded dogs to India? Political stability. But our helpfull friends the Chinese are going to help out with that.

In CRN 6/24/02 is a story about the big Indian software house Majest (not sure of name) that the Chinese want to relocate to China. The Chinese will take care of the political stability issue, and the Indians seem to think it is a good idea.

I am sure you know that now China requires manufacturers as a condition for doing business in China a R&D facility incountry. And they made it clear no token facility, only cutting edge. Motorola just announced a new R&D center to replace their token one. Can you believe, HP just moved their cartridge production from MEXICO to CHINA

Now I do have some suggestions regarding H1B. If you cancel the program or do so by making it so restrictive as to accomplish the same, you will drive them all back, and market pressure will drive the domestic software either to outsource, or send three managers to India/China and setup.

Rather, allow the H1B but allow them a Green card within 6 months of entry. Have the green card renewed every year with proof of employment at the minium salary level of their initial entry. I think we need to do this for every tech profession. Read on before you flame.

Why, I agree that the H1B does grant the employeer a de facto servitude relationship with the employee. This would allow the good ones to receive proper pay from another employeer, and not depress the domestic rate. The bad ones would not be allowed to take another job at lower pay and stay, back to the old country for them. The H1B can be used as a filter to get the best, we are going to need them

Now getting back to how the electronics industry has fared since it's move offshore. We have been lucky to be able to keep the R&D and some very specialized manufacturering. But China is very aware that the R&D is the key and they are using their access to their market to force anyone who wishes to sell there to R&D there. We are in deep trouble if we don't get some leadership on this, and we don't have any time for lots of debate on it. Our exclusive Country Club (USA) is about to have it's legs broken.

Now what else can we do? I wish I had a lot of answers, but one thing as a business owner really hits me when I do previous year runs. If we can somehow get beyond some political correctness and really examine things we do to ourselves that will raise our cost of living without also examining how many jobs it will cost, or generate.

We have got to demand more return for our tax dollar, or a reduction of taxes. I just received my new and improved real estate tax bill, taxes are now 30% of my mortgage payment. My long distance rate is one third of what it was 10 years ago but my bill is the same, taxes makeup the savings. Dito with my basic phone service. Power bill now has a 20% utility tax. I call the power co to report a outage, it's all auto, put in my phone number and it's done. Call the county to report a pot hole and I go through three people. Where is the efficencies we are supposed to get from all the fancy computer equipment we are buying for our govt. I would expect to see the same downsizing as industry. Any other suggestions?

In summary from the other side of the equation, I see Mr. Matloff's study providing soultions that will only drive your industry offshore quickly, and most likely to the Chinese who are welcoming software developing Co's with open arms. I do wonder who paid for this "study" and how much KuaiXue costs? We are going to need it very soon. I also wonder if his simulation software works for neutron multiplication and reflection?