In Istanbul

New York Times ^ | 6/9/2002 | DOUGLAS FRANTZ

[a_Turk]

DOUGLAS FRANTZ is chief of the Istanbul bureau of The Times.

The thread had filled up with a bunch of Turk Hater garbage from two biggoted goofballs, so I had it deleted and started over. Here are most of the ok comments:

To: a_Turk
Ive heard its a great city.
posted on 6/9/02 12:36 PM Eastern by weikel

To: a_Turk
Istambul has always sounded like a great place to visit. My father worked in the Middle East, loved Istambul and wanted to retire there, but an outbreak of anti-Americanism drove most Americans out of Turkey at that time. Pity. Otherwise, I might know much more about Istambul than I do!
posted on 6/9/02 12:38 PM Eastern by livius

To: a_Turk
Sounds like a fine spot for a vacation.
posted on 6/9/02 12:46 PM Eastern by sistergoldenhair

To: livius
Heck, we always had Americans live in our neighborhood.. You're talking about the US embargo years in the mid seventies. That's when that great movie "Midnight Express" was produced in the US. That was not a fun time, but also no big deal. It taught us not to put all our eggs into one basket.
posted on 6/9/02 12:48 PM Eastern by a_Turk

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night

Every gal in Constantinople
Lives in Istanbul, not Constantinople
So if you've a date in Constantinople
She'll be waiting in Istanbul

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works
That's nobody's business but the Turks

Istanbul (Istanbul)
Istanbul (Istanbul)

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can't say
People just liked it better that way

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works
That's nobody's business but the Turks

So take me back to Constantinople
No, you can't go back to Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works
That's nobody's business but the Turks

Istanbul
posted on 6/9/02 12:59 PM Eastern by CounterCounterCulture

To: a_Turk
Great article, a_Turk. Made me homesick for Istanbul.
If I didn't have such an irrational fear of flying (long before 9/11), I'd be on my way.
posted on 6/9/02 12:59 PM Eastern by RottiBiz

To: a_Turk
Well, even the New York Times has to get SOMETHING right, occasionally! LOL! You do a good job promoting tourism in Turkey, A_Turk. Makes me long to visit, for sure!
posted on 6/9/02 1:07 PM Eastern by WaterDragon

To: a_Turk
Hi Friend. Thanks for the ping. I LOVE Turkish Rugs. Just the picture of all those rugs, was breathtaking in and of itself.
I must say though.. they said the prices are reduced? Better than ever? But gosh, I can find hotels a LOT cheaper than that right here in the USA. And, I'm still concerned about "attitudes" towards Americans. I'd love to see some honest debate on that. When we can see true change towards Americans.. I would love to visit there!! But I have to say.. the prices will need to come WAY Down first!!
It used to truly be a bargain to buy turkish rugs. But looking at those prices.. that doesn't appear to be so any longer either. Just a humble opinion friend. I'd love to visit there one day.. just for the rich history and things to learn and see. But time will need to pass and things will need to change before that happens.
Thanks for the ping :o)
posted on 6/9/02 1:15 PM Eastern by Vets_Husband_and_Wife

To: Vets_Husband_and_Wife
Hi there!
On the prices: Check with www.tursantravel.com They gave me the best rates on non-stop airfare ($400 less than elsewhere). They'll be able to help you with tour packages also.. The author quotes mainly top-notch room and board.
On attitudes: There's no targeting of Americans there. We're allied, and everybody knows it. We love our F16's, and the Navy ships we get from the US. Every once in a while there's a fly in the ointment: like the USSR years.. Lots of anti-US commie interference designed to weaken NATO back then. Or an accident like the Saratoga scorching a Turkish destroyer and killing everyone aboard..
Tourists of all sorts are appreciated in Turkey, as long as they don't act like snobs. Nobody will care where you are from.
Just control your apprehension, and go soldier!-)
posted on 6/9/02 1:28 PM Eastern by a_Turk

To: a_Turk
I'm on for the Korfez restaurant.
posted on 6/9/02 2:13 PM Eastern by Bahbah

To: Bahbah
Mmmm, Yum!
posted on 6/9/02 2:15 PM Eastern by a_Turk

To: a_Turk
Hi, a-_Turk. Thanks for swell travel article, makes me want to go back to Istanbul. A day on the Bosporus is just what I need. We hired a small boat at the dock in Istanbul, just for the two of us though it seated 20, and the pilot allowed me to "drive," which I did with great glee. The Turks are incredibly friendly and have a wonderful sense of hospitality, not to mention sense of humor.
posted on 6/9/02 2:46 PM Eastern by PoisedWoman

[a_Turk]

ping!

[Nogbad]

The Tarihi Nevizade Meyhaneleri is a collection of traditional restaurants
serving mezes, fish, meat and raki, the national drink.
They are off Istiklal, behind the Cicek Pasaj

Stay out of the restaurants in Cicek Pasaj,
they are dreadful tourist traps.

The best restaurant in Istanbul
for traditional Turkish food
which tourists seldom find,
is Haci Abdullah,
and it is amazingly cheap.

Haci Abdullah

[Bahbah]

Good idea. You are the only Turk I know and I have a good impression.

[CounterCounterCulture]

LOL! Thanks for keeping my silly little ditty.

Good luck on thread #2

[another cricket]

Never been to Turkey but it sounds lovely. I'll have to see if I can get there.

It's back to Tanzania and Kenya this year but I might have next year free. I generally travel in December any special events to see in that month? Is that considered off-season so things are a little cheaper or not?

a.cricket

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

If all the people in Turkey are like you.. Americans will be treated very well indeed when visiting there! Thanks so much for your help.

One day my husband and I will travel. For now, it is work work work.. and get ready to retire in 4 years. Lets all just pray the world is a safe place then, and we, the World community, can start to enjoy each others countries and cultures. We long for the opportunity to see the world. To meet people like YOU!!!

Thanks again friend..and keep on pinging me, cause we LOVE your posts. You not only enlighten, but you're so interesting. We just love you!! God Bless!!

[VOA]

, I'm still concerned about "attitudes" towards Americans. I'd love to see some
honest debate on that. When we can see true change towards Americans..
I would love to visit there!!

As a "flyover country" American who lived most of his first 35 years in Oklahoma, but got
to travel a bit and am now an "ex-patriate" in The Peoples Republic of Kalifornia,
I can comment about Turkey a bit. (being honest and constructive, I pray)
In the interest of full disclosure, I've not been to Turkey, but picked up a bit
about the place by reading and knowing Americans who've lived there.

Turkey is a country that's trying HARD to be a full partner in the developed world.
I'd call it the "Rodney Dangerfield" of nations...works hard, just doesn't get
the level of respect it deserves.

For many of us in the USA, the first picture of Turkey that comes to mind is "Midnight Express",
the deaths of many Christians during WWI, and a Muslim country.

Unfortunately, our history books (often in public school) didn't give the
fuller, up-to-date picture.

Even as recently as 4 years ago when my boss and his family went for a two-week
holiday in Turkey, I held my breath and said "Do you think that's a smart thing to do?"
They went, had a great time, and enlightened me about the place.

It's a Muslim country. But it's not the "Muslim" place like the Wahabbist Saudia Arabia.
It has some historical baggage that hasn't been resolved in the most graceful manner yet...
while the USA has the same situation over HISTORICAL treatment of blacks, Native Americans
and other minorities.

But I get the feeling that Turkey is honestly, strenuously trying to line up
on the side of "the good guys". Membership in NATO for decades, cooperation agreements
that allow Israeli Air Force pilots to kick in their afterburners over the spacious
Turkish airspace, buying Boeing and other American hardware...these and more
pieces of evidence merit consideration.

I recently saw a PBS special about the Muslim world; one segment dealt with how the
Turkish authorities are trying to hold the line with Islamic extremist elements in their
country.


Heck, their peace-keeping soldiers are now on the ground with our grunts and those
from the U.K., Canada, Australia, Germany (and other places, I suppose) in Afghanistan.

Overall, I, as a conservative guy say "Give Turkey a fair chance, help and encourage them."

[a_Turk]

December is definitely off season and dirt cheap. But I would stick to the southern shore for ok weather and outdoors activities and only venture north (Cleveland weather) to view museums. Istanbul, Bursa and Ankara would be good cities to visit, and you could get a little skiing done while in Bursa. What do you do in Africa?

What do you think Mort?

[aristotleman]

Ah, that we were there!

[VOA]

Never been to Turkey but it sounds lovely. I'll have to see if I can get there.

I'm an average white, cultural-Christian American who has never been to Turkey.
I'm sure a_Turk will fill you in, but I can say that my boss and his family (average American
types like me, just more liberal!) went to Turkey for the last two weeks of December
about 4 years ago and loved it.

My knowledge of Turkey is vicarious, but I get the feeling that it's a good place and
you can tour it safely, while supporting the tourist economy of a country where
your tourist dollars will be appreciated.

[Mortimer Snavely]

I'd recommend Antalya, Bodrum, Fetiye, and the like. Rent a gulet and go snorkelling. Good times!

[a_Turk]

Thanks VOA. Turkish peacekeepers have taken part in Albania, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Kosova(o), Macedonia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Nahcivan, Kirgizistan, Kazakistan and Afganistan, Cyprus (LOL quitely!), and Somalia. There have probably been other spots which I have missed.

Vets: I will caution you that every country has it's criminal elements. While I am sure that the US Armed Forces doesn't produce babes, I thought I'd let you know that we have prisons, and the shitheads it takes to populate them, too. Our cities' inhabitants will remind you of those of New York City, where as the towns and villages bear most of the smiling faces.


Picture of a Turkish peacekeeper innoculating a Kosovar baby.

[VOA]

Thanks VOA.

No need to mention it. I honestly have a guarded feeling about most of the Muslim
world after 9-11.
I guess there must be some feeling of the British term of "fair play" that
impells me to say Turkey (and maybe a few other Muslim countries) merit better consideration.

Even if we are VERY cautious about some of the other Muslim countries.

Our cities' inhabitants will remind you of those of New York City, where as the towns
and villages bear most of the smiling faces.

This seems to be nearly a human universal. When my brother "ran off" to Europe
with an "older woman" for two months during college, he came back and said
"Germans in big cities are arrogant @ssholes; Germans in the countryside are the salt of the earth."

Mostly the same in the USA; a harder edge on people in the bigger cities; warmer humanity
in the less populated areas (but of course, there are lots of exceptions to that
general findings; all you need to do is watch the movie "Deliverance".
I don't think it was total fiction).
When I was growing up I did seem to notice that "Southern Hospitality"
was mostly reserved for white, Protestant people.
(Fortunately that has changed quite a bit in the last 50 years or so.)

[a_Turk]

guarded feeling about most of the Muslim world

When you're accustomed to the dangers of your own forest, you may feel uneasy about the other one on the horizon never having been there.

That is how the critters in the other forest are taught to fear your side. Most of the dopes who go around bitching about the evil Americans have ever known one, and those who have know that they are spinning things to impress would be voters.

Just remember that we're all just human beings, and that nothing works better than individual acts of kindness at a close personal level.

There's never any guaranty of course, just look at the suffering of Jesus. Never the less, that's the only way. Just love your neighbor, and show him you care. If we give up, it's because we're giving in to the proverbial devil.

[crazykatz]

In an open forum, people MAY not always agree with you a Turk...and folks will want to let you know that as well. You post an article from the NYT and expect freepers, ALL of them, just to say...WOW!! The NYT says Istanbul is a great place to visit. Well, HERE is A VERY different opinion from actual experience. You may not like the message, but it is the truth.

Istanbul...."a gapping hell hole, that the earth should open up and swallow, After allowing its unfortunate citizens to flee.This gem of a comment was made by my friend Joy's husband.

Some of my friends and I almost died from their filty food, after suffering through the rudeness of MANY of our 4 star hotel's employees.

It was unfortunaely one indigity after indignity. I actually think it was the worst travel experience of my life. Pick-pockets, worse than France, smelled terrible like an open sewer... stank worse than Versailles' garden fountains.Streets dirtier than Liverpool, England....cars driven as madly as motor scooters in Barcelona.

I would NEVER spend another dime in that city, or country for that matter.I had always wanted to go to Cappodicea, but after Istanbul...NEVER! Third world islamic countries are for the islamics. Modern people BEWARE!!! While others have had seemingly nice experiences....others had a BAD time. My friend Joy, came home with a serious case of Hepatitis. She died 3 years after the trip as a direct result of the hepatitis. It was JUST awful!!

I just will no longer travel to places who have substandard sewage systems and turkish- style toilets. And further, If any freeper believes the NEW YORK TIMES, in anyway....then, klintoon was a great President!! The NYT is never to be trusted...liberal wags and all. I am NOT following any travel, political or personal advice from the NYT...ever.

Others will do what they like about Turkey, but I will not advise anybody to go there. Since I visited there I have advised many against the trip. Many have listened and a couple of others, have not. I got calls from them after they returned. Politics aside, Greece was nice but, Turkey was NOT!

[xJones]

Politics aside, Greece was nice but, Turkey was NOT!

By any chance, crazykatz, are you of Greek ancestry? Just asking....

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

We don't "do" big cities. Barely went through NY once,..and didn't like SanFrancisco, or even Sacramento California because of size. We are small town people. So we would visit the "real" people :o)

When that day comes, the day we travel, I hope we are still in touch friend.. I will ask your advice if thats ok. Hoping to know you in about 4 or 5 years.

:o)

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

I've heard the same things you have. When we lived in Alaska, we had a friend who went there often to purchase rugs. She LOVED it there. We even took a travel school training (for fun, to get to know different regions) with a Turkish Fellow. We had hoped to go be guests with his family and him, but children and moolah prevented it.

He was a total sweetheart. He told us that there were area's to stay away from. That his family would welcome us like we were their family. So we REALLY wanted to go. He was going to show us his country. So sad we couldn't do it, dog gone it!!

I'm with you VOA,.. we need to encourage tourism to the countries of our friends!!!

[a_Turk]

If I am no longer around in four to five years, then contact the Turkish Embassy in DC for tourist info.

Take care.