[JenB]

I'm not sure theologically, but I think that while an unfallen creature may have flaws and faults, he will not act on them. To do so is to sin, and therefore he is no longer unfallen. Put it like this. Maybe you have a character flaw - you have a short temper. That's fine, but if you throw a boot at someone's head and knock her out, that would be a sin.

Does that make any sense? Penny, should we ask your elder for an opinion?

[HairOfTheDog]

But that's the thing... I am not seeing any sins on the part of any of the elves, as individuals or as a race, in the age our story takes place. I was asking what exactly they have done...

The quote seems like a fairly benign conversation, and I am having a hard time connecting it to anything. I can't tell what the question was, so it is like reading the replies without reading the ariticle.

[Penny1]

Well, we certainly could... ;)

I think technically, even if one doesn't "act," on something, just thinking about something in a wrong way is sin as well. That's why the coveting example is such a zinger--even if you don't steal something from someone, if you wish you had something that belongs to someone else, you sin.

With the short-temper example, if you have a short temper but don't act on it, that's all well and good, but if you merely feel like acting on it, you still have sinned.

In other words, no wiggle room in there, lol...

As it applies to Elves, not wanting to change even when change is ordained by God, means a lack of contentment with God's will. In other words, they are saying in their hearts that they don't trust God's judgment, they don't trust him to know what's best for them and for ME. It's not as obvious, but it's still a sin for them to think that way.

Does that make any sense at all?

[Overtaxed]

What I take to be "fallen" is the failure to conform one's will to God's. The point I was trying to make from Letter #181 was that in ME Tolkien said that it was God's will that the world change. The words were that change is "the unfolding of the story and to refuse this is of course against the design of God." If to refuse change is against the design of God, then God's will must be for change.

It's not so much the "changing world" that is important...it's the will of God. I mean, if God willed that the Elves should have jelly beans and the Elves keep trying to get rid of jelly beans, Elves would still be fallen because they are not conformed to the will of God. Of course, since it's the will of God, the Elves would always find themselves with jelly beans and they would have jelly bean anxiety until they just accepted God's will in the matter.

[BibChr]

Penny, should we ask your elder for an opinion?

Yeah, dang. Too bad there's no one with theological training in the FR LOTR group you can ask. Blast.

Dan