[Overtaxed]

They disobey the Valar and certainly sin, so it would seem they too are fallen.

I was just wondering why no one seemed to understand my argument that the Elves refusing to change when change was the design of God was a "fallen" characteristic. (from the quote I posted yesterday...Letter 181.)

[JenB]

Maybe Elves are fallen but still, er, nicer than Men? At least fewer of them seem to fall into depravity of the sort you see in us humans too often.

[HairOfTheDog]

I am not sure I understand the issue you raise, and I didn't get it last night either, so this is a flaw of mine....

Seems like Tolkien was describing unwillingness to change as a character trait, and a weakness or a flaw in elves, but are weaknesses and flaws the same thing as sin? - if you have a flaw are you then "fallen?" - in what way are they being asked to change? - and which ones aren't changing and hences "fallen"? - all of them?

I admit to quite a bit of fatigue tonight so maybe you will have to talk slowly. What exactly is the point?