Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
I remember the info about an extra battle as coming from a quote from an interview with Jackson at a bookstore or something.
Hopefully, I've got it wrong.
I thought that was sort of a Stoors thing, it is only the murdering that is a little over the top!
Isn't that what happened to the 9 kings who turned into the Nazgul. I know they didn't have the ring of power, but had the 9 rings... and they just became enslaved to Sauron's will and turned into wraiths
Some folks do get p-ssed off over every little thing, don't they?
Dan
Appreciate you getting back, but this is a little third-hand at this point! I won't get excited until I hear something a little more definite (though you've got me worried). Of course if, as suggested above, it is just a portrayal of a battle only described in the third person previously, it is ok with me.
Sorry Dan, it is easy to feel sorry for Boromir, and Gollum as well. Denethor is harder, but I grudgingly can do it for him too. But feeling sorry for Saruman because he betrayed his maker and those he was supposed to protect is like feeling sorry for Lucifer. John Milton couldn't make me do it, and you can't do it either.
Picky, picky picky!
Yes that's right and I realized it right after I posted it.(Silly poster!) Of course it all would have melded into one big hunk of evil and it wouldn't matter if it were the ring, Sauron, or Aragorn. It's all really Melkor.
Happy now? Happy? Happy now?
Dan
Happy as the guest of honor at a celebrity roast with Wormtongue, Shgelob and a Balrog as roastmasters!
Poor Saruman! Once he left the straight-and-narrow, he just couldn't do anything right! :)
I don't worry too much about an "extra" battle scene, or other rearrangements in the script to make something work out better in Jackson's mind. After the first film, I trust him with a little license.
Before seeing the first film, all of us were fretting over every rumored disastrous change in the story line. This fretting for me continued through the first viewing of the film. That first time through I frowned nervously at every slight alteration to this story that we know, quote and revere to near biblical detail.
But after that first viewing, the fingers crossed-"Lord I hope they do this right" viewing, most of us were willing to accept Jackson telling the story his way. Many things were moved, omitted, or added to FoTR, and the story was not lost.
When we view TTT for the first time, most of us will be nervous again, but should fear less, and know that Jackson is going to tell the sotry his way, and that even the changes are not necessarily counter to our "faith". I at least, will be giving this second film more benefit of the doubt when I notice changes, and my blood pressure may only go up because it is finally here, not because of a panic that something has been misquoted.
Except that Melkor is no longer a personal presence in Arda, having been expelled into the outer dark. However, the discord which Melkor originally wove into the Ainulindalë continues to be manifest in Arda. So, in an impersonal way, one could say that it's all Melkor. Tolkien's myth does not have persistent, personally evil figures analogous to Satan. Melkor is pretty close, but he is dispatched well before the End, so he fails to map completely.
What Tolkien really gives us are series of "Satan figures." These guys keep coming to bad ends. Perhaps this is a deliberate attempt to avoid equating any being with Illuvatar, and thereby falling into dualism.
Oh, I agree that Melkor definitely got the ball rolling. What a loser.
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