Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
BOROMIR:
It is a gift. A gift to the foes of Mordor! Why not use this ring? Long has my father, the Steward of Gondor, kept the forces of Mordor at bay, by the blood of our people-- all your lands kept safe! Give Gondor the weapon of the enemy. Let us use it against him!
Also, when we meet these characters at the first, we can't telegraph the end on them. Meaning... when I am teaching during my acting classes, my actors may be on page 8 or 9 of the script and they begin to telegraph or react to what happens to their characters on page 32 or 33, I have to remind them that on page 8 your character doesn't have a clue that page 32 will happen to him. So, you have to play it as if you don't know.
So, to Boromir it was a weapon... it wasn't until he was appalled at his behavior concerning Frodo that he realized that Gandalf was right.
In Rivendell, Boromir was a good man who was desperate. At the end, at his hour of testing, he remained a good man. Well done, Boromir!
Sauruman is equally fascinating, and fails the same test, but is never willing to see himself for what he became.
/john
His best trait is his devotion to his people and city. Unfortunately this is also his downfall. There is a sense, in Tolkien, that what we most want is the thing that is most dangerous to us. Frodo originally wants only to live in the Shire; had he remained there after all that had happened to him, who knows what torment he might have gone through. We don't really need to spell out how bad Gollum's desire for the Ring was for him. In Silmarillion Feanor's desire for the silmaril wreaks havoc on Middle-Earth. Boromir is another example of this principle. He wants to save his city, so he doesn't really fight the call of the Ring, I think. It is playing on his greatest weakness.
Yes... superbly (dare I say adequately?) defended carton!
Be at peace, Son of Gondor.
I enjoyed the article you put up concerning the Norse roots used by Tolkien and their corruption by the Nazis.
It's slightly weird that the values we cherish, personal liberty and freedom, backed by a Judeo Christian sense of morality, can be traced through the Anglo Saxons back to Germany, the same area that "perfected" socialism, which I believe was a French invention.
I think Fang and Grip are still on the other side, so mushrooms ought to be safe.
Hopefully this thread will pass the other. It's a good thing being able to discuss these kind of things once in a while with people who aren't liberals.
Faithfully defended, I'd say. We can always trust Carton to defend hose the rest of us would rather bash, can't we? But would she defend Sauron?
Incidentally if anyone wants to chat I'm already there. :-)
Boromir has this all-consuming zeal for Gondor that he believes his birthright confers on him. No one can possibly understand the gravity of his responsibility to Gondor.
There is this haunting desperation in his desire to save it, as though some part of him wonders if he's up to the task.
You know, that's not a bad idea. I could use a little dip into fantasy right now; reality's not been so good to me lately.:)
Thanks for the invite!
You know, the fellowship should have tried using some Krupnik on those Orcs. Would've made their task a WHOLE lot easier.:)
So, I have learned that mercy and compassion are never out of line for those who failed. I have needed mercy and compassion on occasion.
Yes, Boromir was wrong to want the ring, but that one desire doesn't make him a villian. You can still fail and be a good man.
My Freeper name should tell you how I feel. Ever read A Tale of Two Cites? The Carton comes from Sydney Carton. Another good man with huge failings and weakness. And my favorite character in literature.
Personally I like the hero who gives up what he wants to do what he must do, and also the Sam-types, the sidekick who does incredible things out of love for the hero (platonic or romantic love, at this level, it doesn't matter). I guess my idea is that everyone has a hero inside of him - it's just some people never get the chance, and other turn the chance down.
But mostly, he's my favorite character in the books because he makes me laugh. And I never turn down a good laugh.
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