The New Hobbit Hole

[Overtaxed]

As near as I can tell it started around post 5230:

except Elves are a step closer to us than angels are.

It sounded to me Elves were being put above Men and below angels. At least non-fallen angels have no sin whereas Men have sin and are fallen. Where does that leave Elves if they are between Men and angels? Either you sin or you don't. I was trying to use Letters 181 to illustrate that Elves are fallen ...or have sin...too so are on the same level as Men.

[Corin Stormhands]

It sounded to me Elves were being put above Men and below angels.

Did I fall asleep and wake-up again on that forum?

I am sooooo confused....

[Penny1]

Do you mean the song that comes on right before Enya's "May it be?" That is a wonderful song, but you have to read the lyrics to it to catch why it's so wonderful. I think the lyrics were written by Fran Walsh, and can't even listen to it without tearing up. It is all about what Sam and Frodo will go through over the course of the story, including the eventual blessings they'll receive at the end of their struggles.

I actually like that song better than Enya's--it seems so wonderfully appropriate to the style of music in the rest of the movie, and the words are quite touching.

[JenB]

Well, that was just me being hyperbolic. Sure, Elves aren't angelic - they aren't sinless, nor quite as terrible and wonderful. But don't you feel that these days, if we were to meet a real Elf, he'd have to say, "Do not be afraid"?

Elves, like angels, are beautiful and terrible and more noble than we are. Elves are still flawed, and unlike angels, they are Children of Iluvatar, like Men. But they are the Firstborn and we are the Followers. I bet they're much better older siblings than I am....

[Penny1]

OT, I don't think you can fit Elves into a strictly Christian theological pigeon-hole. Tolkien was Catholic, but he was also fully aware that he was writing fantasy/mythology. It's as if he wanted to explore a type of being that is neither angel nor man, but somewhere in between with characteristics of both.

[SuziQ]

What is with the boy's choir at the end of the soundtrack? It keeps shocking me. It just came on again.

That is my MOST favorite part of the soundtrack!!! I just love to hear a boys choir, anyway; so angelic sounding. But that song is lovely because it makes me think of Frodo and Sam wandering through Mordor, cut off from all their friends. The only way they CAN see them is "In Dreams". The image of Mordor is evoked by the line "in the veiling of the sun, we will walk in bitter rain" And I love the last line which calls to mind 'The Hobbit'; "in the dark I hear your call, calling me there, I will go there, and back again"

[HairOfTheDog]

Ok Ladies - sounds wonderful when you describe it... I am going to go listen to it again!

[HairOfTheDog]

OK - Listened again... I am not sure I love it yet... but it is starting to fit in and not shock me. hehehehe

Have you ever fell in love with an instrumental and then much later found that it had words to it? Just feels like that I guess.

[Penny1]

Your problem is you haven't sat through all the credits in the movie enough times ;) It comes on during the credits, but not until a bit after Enya's song is finished.

[HairOfTheDog]

I have never sat through the credits once! - I am busted I guess!

[Penny1]

Hehehe...

I think I sat all the way through the credits for more than half of the times I went...but then, I like to do that with most movies. I like to listen to all the music.

[Sam Cree]

"I can ignite the alcohol in wine by heating the wine first and torching the vapor"

Hi, Overtaxed, how did you ever manage to figure that out?

[Tuor]

OT, as for the 'fallen' debate, the Elves are not perfect. No one says they are. They disobey the Valar and certainly sin, so it would seem they too are fallen. The Fall is not depicted in ME, but it seems a fact. As to what fallen means, according to the catechism I learned as a child, it means that everyone is "corrupt in every part of his being". Goes for Elves as well as Men, I suppose.

IIRC, Tolkien says that the Elves have not experienced a Fall, as Man has.

Tuor

[Tuor]

Hold on there, OT. That wasn't my citation. :/ I don't think Jackson's elves (from what I've heard about the movie) are all that much like Tolkien Elves...at least not Elrond and Galadriel.

Tuor

[Sam Cree]

"I think I sat all the way through the credits for more than half of the times I went"

I don't usually watch the credits, of course I usually don't even watch the movies. On my first viewing of FOTR, though, my family and I did sit through them - so did the entire audience, I think everyone was just stunned, and couldn't move.

[HairOfTheDog]

Perhaps you could see it and report back?

[HairOfTheDog]

I think the movie Elrond was perhaps the most spot-on to the books! He was really good... so was Legolas... but that goes without saying! or does it?

I will give you half-credit for Galadriel... but there is only about two minutes of her that was not perfect.

[Sam Cree]

"don't even watch the movies"

not referring to FOTR, I mean I don't watch movies in general, FOTR I watch

[HairOfTheDog]

hehehehehe - I got your meaning when you said it.... didn't think you went there to knit!

[Lucius Cornelius Sulla]

I think the movie Elrond was perhaps the most spot-on to the books!

Must be why I am him!