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The New Hobbit Hole

Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog

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To: Overtaxed
I can't really tell what Tolkien's point is from that snippetlet your have presented... Perhaps the whole context would help?
5,261 posted on 05/13/2002 7:02:19 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: Overtaxed
Pretty and dang deadly... Haven't seen anyone smart decline his help if things get rough.
5,262 posted on 05/13/2002 7:04:50 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: Overtaxed
I'm going to bed now, or I'd dig out the many quotes about the Decline of Numenor, etcetera, that are the fault of Men. Interestingly, those Men who hang out with Elves are usually the best, noblest, most heroic of all.
5,263 posted on 05/13/2002 7:05:40 PM PDT by JenB
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To: HairOfTheDog
Rivendell was the one under threat from Saruman...

And Rohan wasn't? So Saruman sent that weasel Wormtongue to Theoden, closed the Gap of Rohan, and did battle at the Isen and Helm's Deep just for fun?

5,264 posted on 05/13/2002 7:13:56 PM PDT by Overtaxed
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To: Overtaxed
That had not happened yet, or was not yet known, when the conversation you condemn took place!
5,265 posted on 05/13/2002 7:16:44 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog
"Of course in fact exterior to my story Elves and Men are just different aspects of the Humane and represent the problem of Death as seen by a finite but willing and self-conscious person. In this mythological world the Elves and Men are in their incarnate forms kindred, but in relation of their 'spirits' to the world in time represent different 'experiments', each of which has its own natural trend, and weakness.

The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane nature raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men. That is: they have a devoted love of the physical world, and a desire to observe and understand it for its own sake and as 'other' - sc. as a reality derived from God in the same degree as themselves - not as a material for use or as a power-platform. They also possess a 'subcreational' or artistic faculty of great excellence. They are therefore 'immortal'.. Not 'eternally', but to endure with and within the created world, while its story lasts. When 'killed', by the injury or destruction of their incarnate form, they do not escape from time, but remain in the world, either discarnate, or being re-born.

This becomes a great burden as the ages lengthen, especially in a world in which there is malice and destruction (I have left out the mythological form which Malice or the Fall of the Angels takes in this fable).

Mere change as such is not represented as 'evil': it is the unfolding of the story and to refuse this is of course against the design of God. But the Elvish weakness is in these terms naturally to regret the past, and to become unwilling to face change: as if a man were to hate a very long book still going on, and wished to settle down in a favourite chapter. Hence they fell in a measure to Sauron's deceits: they desired some 'power' over things as they are (which is quite distinct from art), to make their particular will to preservation effective: to arrest change, and keep things always fresh and fair.

The 'Three Rings' were 'unsullied', because this object was in a limited way good, it included the healing of the real damages of malice, as well as the mere arrest of change; and the Elves did not desire to dominate other wills, nor to usurp all the world to their particular pleasure. But with the downfall of 'Power' their little efforts at preserving the past fell to bits. There was nothing more in Middle-earth for them, but weariness. So Elrond and Galadriel depart. Gandalf is a special case. He was not the maker or original holder of the Ring - but it was surrendered to him by Cirdan, to assist him in his task. Gandalf was returning, his labour and errand finished, to his home, the land of the Valar."

I put in the paragraph breaks and the blue text is what I posted before. What I get from this is that for the world to change was God's will and for the Elves to refuse that change was going against the will of God just as the quest for immortality by Men was against the will of God. So why should the Elves be 'better' than Men if both were going against the will of God?

5,266 posted on 05/13/2002 7:44:12 PM PDT by Overtaxed
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To: HairOfTheDog
That had not happened yet, or was not yet known, when the conversation you condemn took place!

Then movie-Elrond was dumber than book-Elrond! Refugees from the South had been moving north up the Greenway and there's unrest going on all around before Frodo gets to Rivendell (I'd link ecurbh's timeline if I could find it!)

5,267 posted on 05/13/2002 7:54:34 PM PDT by Overtaxed
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To: Overtaxed
Thanks for posting the whole thing... It helps a little to understand what Tolkien was saying in his answer, but what was the question?...

I have trouble with your basic premise that Elrond cares only for Rivendell, and nothing for the others... and this line of argument is not answering that! The Ring is the only victory that matters... and that one was in his living room.

5,268 posted on 05/13/2002 7:54:36 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: Overtaxed
There is "unrest" everywhere! - there are bad guys around! - That is why they all came there to find out what to do! And they devised a plan to end it... in the only way that mattered. Would you have sent them to all to Gondor to fight? Maybe let the ring stay there? good plan!
5,269 posted on 05/13/2002 7:57:26 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: Overtaxed
Boromir came through the Gap of Rohan on his way to Rivendell, it was open then... And under Gandalf's leadership they were all hoping to go that way when they left.
5,270 posted on 05/13/2002 7:59:27 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog
I was talking about the attitude of the movie-Elrond. I get that premise from when he was talking/agruing with Gandalf. All he talked about was how Rivendell was in danger (it was, but then so were other places.) Oh yeah! And he mentioned that Men were weak, scattered, leaderless....like they weren't worth trying to save.
5,271 posted on 05/13/2002 8:01:45 PM PDT by Overtaxed
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To: HairOfTheDog
There is "unrest" everywhere! - there are bad guys around! - That is why they all came there to find out what to do! And they devised a plan to end it... in the only way that mattered. Would you have sent them to all to Gondor to fight? Maybe let the ring stay there? good plan!

Elrond should have been somewhat aware of the unrest going on unless he has his head in the sand. And I'm aguing Elrond's attitude not ring plans!

5,272 posted on 05/13/2002 8:05:35 PM PDT by Overtaxed
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To: Overtaxed
He was not saying they were not worthy of saving, he was doubting that they were strong enough to win against Sauron. It was an assessment of their readiness. What Aragorn would do was not yet known. And he was right. Gondor was not strong or ready. Their leaders were weak and failing. And neither was Rohan. I think it was really nicely crafted dialogue myself!
5,273 posted on 05/13/2002 8:07:32 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog
Boromir came through the Gap of Rohan on his way to Rivendell, it was open then... And under Gandalf's leadership they were all hoping to go that way when they left.

That's why I wanted to look at ecurbh's timeline. Eomer tells Aragorn that Saruman closed the Gap but I don't know when in relation to the Council of Elrond. Gap-closing, horse-raiding, and border-skirmishes aren't exactly characteristic of neighbors who get along.

5,274 posted on 05/13/2002 8:08:50 PM PDT by Overtaxed
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To: Overtaxed
Eomer and Aragorn did not meet until after the Council, on the plain when they were following Merry and Pippin.
5,275 posted on 05/13/2002 8:11:07 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog
I think it was really nicely crafted dialogue myself!

Yeah, snooty dialogue! He seemed awful cold when he delivered it. It made me think Elves cared about others as much as the Dwarves did. :)

5,276 posted on 05/13/2002 8:11:45 PM PDT by Overtaxed
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To: Overtaxed
The Treason of Isenguard was not known until Gandalf escaped and was brought to Rivendell... Gandalf was the first to know that.
5,277 posted on 05/13/2002 8:13:32 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: HairOfTheDog
Eomer and Aragorn did not meet until after the Council, on the plain when they were following Merry and Pippin.

Saruman had to close the Gap before Eomer could tell Aragorn about it.

5,278 posted on 05/13/2002 8:14:19 PM PDT by Overtaxed
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To: Overtaxed
Was a cold conversation about a hopeless situation. Time to face facts.
5,279 posted on 05/13/2002 8:15:04 PM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: JenB
Only takes 3 score here.
5,280 posted on 05/13/2002 8:15:29 PM PDT by DonnerT
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