The New Hobbit Hole

[SuziQ]

Not to mention that Boromir was probably ashamed of his father's ailing health.

I don't know that he was ashamed, I think he was perplexed by his father's slide into despair. Of course that is explained in RoTK, but Boromir would never have known the origin of his father's real problem.

[HairOfTheDog]

Thbbbpt! ;-)

You are right of course John.... There is no one conservative position on this one, is there?

[Lil'freeper]

"Them" meaning office women.

[John Farson]

Opposing or supporting a war doesn't make one liberal or conservative. It is a fallacious argument used by groupthinkers.

Think back to the widespread opposition here to the war in Kosovo.

[ItsOurTimeNow]

Not only that but it is, in my old-fashioned and unsolicited opinion, highly inappropriate of them to invite a young married man out to social gatherings without his wife.

Exactly. Plus, I spent 8-10 hours a day with these people...what makes them think I want to spend MORE time with them?

[HairOfTheDog]

I don't know that Denethor slid into despair until after Boromir's death, he was aging, certainly, and Gondor was not strong and ready in the face of a growing Mordor... but I think his slide into despair was largely because of Boromir's death.

[HairOfTheDog]

I admit to being surprised to find so much opposition to the war on that thread. It is not as cut and dried as I thought.

[John Farson]

I dunno... I don't particularly claim Tolkien as a conservative of today.

Tolkien was an anarchist -- or a monarchist like Hans-Hermann Hoppe. (I think viewing the Ring of Power as government is very much applicable.)

---

"You can make the Ring into an allegory of our own time, if you like: and allegory of the inevitable fate that waits for all attempts to defeat evil power by power"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
_The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_ p. 121 (1995)

"In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. He had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of Earth. But he went further than human tyrants in pride and the lust for domination, being in origin an immortal (angelic) spirit."
--ibid. p. 243

"Of course my story is not an allegory of Atomic power, but of Power (exerted for domination)"
--ibid. p. 246.

"We cannot use the Ruling Ring. That we now know too well. It belongs to Sauron and was made by him alone, and is altogether evil. Its strength is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own. But for them it holds an even deadlier peril. The very desire of it corrupts the heart. If any of the Wise should with this Ring overthrow the Lord of Mordor, using his own arts, he would then set himself on Sauron’s throne, and yet another Dark Lord would appear. And that is another reason why the Ring should be destroyed: as long as it is in the world it will be a danger even to the Wise."
--Elrond {character}
_The Fellowship of the Ring_ p. 261

"The story is cast in terms of a good side, and a bad side, beauty against ruthless ugliness, tyranny against kingship, moderated freedom with consent against compulsion that has long lost any object save mere power, and so on."
--ibid. pp. 178-179

"I am not a 'democrat' only because 'humility' and equality are spiritual principles corrupted by the attempt to mechanize and formalize them, with the result that we get not universal smallness and humility, but universal greatness and pride, till some Orc gets hold of a ring of power--and then we get and are getting slavery"
--J.R.R. Tolkien
_The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien_ p. 246 (1995)

"My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs) – or to 'unconstitutional' Monarchy. I would arrest anybody who uses the word state (in any sense other than the inanimate realm of England and its inhabitants, a thing that has neither power, rights nor mind); and after a chance of recantation, execute them if they remained obstinate!"
--ibid. p. 246

"If we could get back to personal names, it would do a lot of good. Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and the process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people. If people were in the habit of referring to 'King George's council, Winston and his gang', it would do a long way to clearing thought, and reducing the frightful landslide into Theyocracy."
--ibid. p. 63

"Power is an ominous and sinister word in all these tales"
--ibid. p. 152

"What Saruman says encapsulates many of the things the modern world has learnt to dread most: the ditching of allies, the subordination of means to ends, the 'conscious acceptance of guilt in the necessary murder'. But the way he puts it is significant too. No other character in Middle Earth has Saruman's trick of balancing phrases against each other so that incompatibles are resolved, and none comes out with words as empty as 'deploring', 'ultimate', worst of all, 'real'... None of them but Saruman pays any attention to expediency, practicability, Realpolitik, 'political realism'
--Tom Shippey
_The Road to Middle Earth_ pp. 108-110.) (1992)

[ItsOurTimeNow]

Maybe ashamed was too strong a word.

I think he saw the strength and valor of Gondor sliding, and didn't want to admit to himself that it was in such a condition. Add to that the heavy burden to "do the right thing" that he was carrying...coupled with a serious case of tunnel-vision...and you've got one volatile dude.

[Sam Cree]

Hello John, I must have said something I didn't mean.

I was trying to make the same point, that "conservative opinion" isn't monolithic, only I think "isn't monolithic" describes it mildly. I have the idea that so many wildly different points of view are called "conservative," that the term "conservative" almost has no meaning anymore, except maybe it means anything opposed to the Left.

As for the war with Iraq, it's clear to me that ridding the world of Hussein would be a service to the entire world. But if we go in there, I hope we know what we are doing, because a military reverse of some kind will only make things even worse than they already are. But I agree with W, if he still believes it, that, to ensure our own survival, it seems like it will be necessary to eradicate terrorism, and that may also mean putting out of business those states that support it. A scary situation we are in, IMO.

I also wish that we would embark on a "war footing" type of campaign to rid ourselves of our dependence on Middle Eastern oil, whether that means drilling in Alaska or the Everglades, or developing alternative energy. Maybe then some of those people might fade back into the sand. They could use their oil to wash their faces or whatever. It seems like unbelievable folly to continue pursuing a policy that gives them such unbelievable wealth.

My personal political beliefs imply maximum individual liberty, so forcing folks into a mold would be in direct opposition to my beliefs. Now I have to go back and reread my post and see if I can figure out how I could have made an impression 180 degrees from what I meant.

I like your picture of you with the coyote. What rifle were you using?

Please forgive me for replying at such length to your brief post. But these kind of discussions are fun.

[SuziQ]

but I think his slide into despair was largely because of Boromir's death.

Boromir alluded to the problems in Gondor when he was talking with Aragorn in Lothlorien (in the movie) but I think that other matter pushed Denethor over the edge, surely exacerbated by Boromir's death.

BTW, one of my favorite parts in that Lothlorien scene is when Boromir asks Aragorn if he has ever been 'called home by the sound of silver trumpets'. That makes Aragorn's statement at Boromir's death in the extended version even more poignant. Paraphrased: "They will watch for him from the towers, but he will not return."

[RMDupree]

Again, I am not arguing on the definition of conservative or liberal but rather, pointing out that this thread has typically remained politics-free in an effort to keep things friendly.

What goes on outside the Hole, stays outside the Hole. All of you could be flaming liberals in every sense of the word, but in here I don't care because you are all myfriends and fellow Tolkien fans.

I apply the same philosophy in regards to the actors in the movie. Do I care that Viggo is against the war? No. Do I care that Ian McKellen is gay? No. I love their character portrayals of Aragorn and Gandald, respectively and that is where it ends.

I refuse to debate on this thread when there are hundreds of other threads I can do that on.

[HairOfTheDog]

anarchist does fit... true rural anarchy with no need for rules...

I cringe at the use of the word because I live in an area so over-run with the pierced and spiked hair "anarchists" responsible for the WTO riots in Seattle and such things. They have changed the meaning of the word for me.

And I am not sure even Tolkien's vision of Anarchy would ever work in the real world... not a modern one with real people in it. It works in the Shire, and it is a lovely place to visit.

[John Farson]

it will be necessary to eradicate terrorism

Do you really believe that is possible?

This current War on Terrorism may well be viewed in the future like The War to End All Wars (WWI) or the failing War on Drugs.

[Sam Cree]

"It works in the Shire, and it is a lovely place to visit."

I think the founding fathers meant it to work here, but it sure is an open question whether it has. I think we are losing their vision, but are still free from the centuries old momentum of our traditions.

[HairOfTheDog]

Oh, we are doing OK here Ruth, don't worry! ... we like each other!... It is topical to our hole since it came up in the Viggo thread, and John has a different voice on the issue is all.

You and I will come down hard on whoever does not show the required amount of cheer necessary for the hole! - Glad to have you here!

[HairOfTheDog]

I think the founding fathers meant it to work here too, but the world has changed so much. The cogs and smoke and pavement and huge explosion in population has changed the world so much from what it was in those simpler days. That is why I don't think we can ever go back.

[John Farson]

I didn't mean to come off harsh. Your post is not at fault. I'm tired of conservatives being equated with liberals for their dissenting position.

Your post just prompted me to respond.

The rifle in the pic? That is my father's .22 Remington. ...I think he bought it at Service Merchandise.

[Sam Cree]

"Do you really believe that is possible?"

Yeah, pretty much. Not easily. If Carton is right about it existing with the support of states, and those states would go after it instead of supporting it, yeah, I think most of it can be eradicated. Probably not 100% though.

But since terrorists are now giving us orders as a nation and killing us, we pretty much don't have many choices. Seems like it is either cede them the ability to continue or get 'em.

[Corin Stormhands]

Do you really believe that is possible?

Do you believe we shouldn't try?

The probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just. - Abraham Lincoln

Fighting terrorism is the right thing to do. We hope to win. We may not. I don't really care if Iraq bombed the WTC or not. But they (or at least Saddam) are the friends of those who did and would wish much more horrible things upon us.

See what you did? You went and made a Son of the Confederacy quote Lincoln...