Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
Thesis Statements: 1) There is no such thing as an historical Palestinian people or state. 2) The true reason behind the Arab invention of the Palestinians. 3) The consequences of a Palestinian state.
My main problem is I only have 6 minutes to speak... and I think it's about 10. But, I don't want to loose any part of it because it's very well put together. Great sources, great quotes... Oh, well... sacrifices must happen.
I need a clincher too...
Man... I'm having a ball. I'm exhaused, but I'm having a ball.
Yes. When I get some CDR disks. What I have are the mp3 tracks that ecurbh has on his website.
yeah, what he said...
According to the group, which monitors the Palestinian media, Rayis' November 25 column in the official Palestinian Authority newspaper Al-Hayat al-Jadeeda charged President George W. Bush with attempting to "isolate" and "incite" the Muslim world against America. This, he said, will leave Arabs and Moslems no choice but to carry out "suicide attacks against the United States, its armed forces, and its navy."
I guess he means our policy of always pulling tight the leash we think we have on Israel, every time they go after the terrorists.
You have been lied to! I bet you didn’t know that. But it’s true. Everytime you hear claims Israel has illegally occupied Palestinian land, you have been the victim of Arab propaganda, spin, and lies.
Why is this subject important to us? Simply put, Palestinian oppression at the hands of tyrannical Israel is one of reasons Osama Bin Laden gave for 9/11. I think it would be in our interest to find out if the Palestinians really are the victims they portray themselves to be.
This morning I will attempt to persuade you that a Palestinian State on Israel’s border will be the death of the Jewish State. We will look at 1) There has never been an historical Palestinian people or state. 2) The true reason behind the Arab invention of the Palestinians. And 3) The consequences of a Palestinian state.
First, there has never been an historical Palestinian people or state.
When the first Zionists arrived in Palestine, they found a sparsely populated collection of marshes, desert, and malaria infested swamps.As they drained the swamps and marshes and caused the desert to bloom, a large influx of Arab immigrants arrived to take advantage of the booming job market.
After the 1948 War of Independence, the Arabs never attempted to establish an independent Palestinian state in the territories they won in the war. Jordan controlled the West Bank while Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip. There was no call for a Palestinian state until after the Yom Kippur War, the Arabs 4th failed attempt to eradicate the Jews from Israel.
Joan Peters writes in her well-researched book: From Time Immemorial that while she was researching the UN definition of a Palestinian, she discovered that a Palestinian was anyone “who had been in Palestine for only two years before Israel’s statehood in 1948.”
Joseph Farrah writes in his 11/19/02 article: The Jews Took No One’s Land on WorldNetDaily.Com that when Mark Twain visited the Holy Land in the 19th century, he was greatly disappointed that he didn’t see any people. He referred to it as a vast wasteland. In the same article, the author quotes Winston Churchill saying “that the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population increased than even all world Jewry could lift up.”
Daniel Doron, President of the Israel Center for Social and Economic Progress, explains that the Arab argument rests on two interrelated fabrications: that around 1900 the Jews, an alien European people,colonized an Arab land; and that in 1948, and again in 1967 Israelis aggressively occupied this land, driving its native population out. Justice therefore demands, that the land be restored to its original owners, and that the Jewish agressors be punished and repulsed. Yet, the fact is that no Arab at anytime in history ever owned significant parts of the land in Palestine as private property, nor controlled it as a distinct national entity. The Palestinians are not warring to regain their lands, but land that belonged to the Ottoman and British Empires.
Transition: Now that we have determined that the Jews did not displace a the Palestinians with their arrival, let’s move on to our second point.
Two, let's look at the true reason behind the Arab invention of the Palestinians.
In 1964, three years before the 1967 Six Day War, before Israel occupied “Palestinian land”, the Egyptians created the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) terrorists to recover their lost pride. The Arabs refer to the defeats of 1948 and 1949 as Nakba - The Disaster.What the Arabs lost militarily, they now try to win back politically. They play upon Europe’s latent anti-semitism. They play the oil card. They use terror. The West responds by retreating and blaming Israel for failing to bring peace to the region.
Leading Palestinian officials make no secret that they aren’t looking for peace but for the eradication of Israel. Arafat Deputy, Abu Iyad says that “the Phased Plan will establish a Palestinian State on any part of Palestine that the enemy will retreat from. The Palestinian State will be a stage in our prolonged struggle for the liberation of Palestine on all of its territory.” Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Member of the Palestinian Authority appointed Fatwa Council spoke on October 13, 2000 on Palestinian Television. “Even if an agreement of Gaza is signed-we shall not forget Haifa, the Galilee, and Jaffa, and the rest of our cities and villages. It is only a matter of time. The weak will not remain weak forever, and the strong will not remain strong forever.”
There is a duplicity in dealing the the PLO.
Emanuel Winston, a Middle East Analyst states: “The culture in the Middle East often finds that a fantasy is offered in place of reality as an explanation of why something happened,particularly when it has to do with a loss of pride and shame. The fabrication initially offered as the reason soon becomes irrefutable history, even to its inventor. As it is passed around,it becomes history with all of the supporting evidence simply pulled out of the air.
Yasser Arafat claims to have been born in Jerusalem and a nephew of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem a noted terrorist. But neither of these claims are true. Arafat was born in Cairo, Egypt. Nor is he related to the Grand Mufti. You have an Egyptian in charge of the PLO, which works out perfectly because the PLO is an Egyptian terrorist organization created to bring about the eventual demise of Israel.
Transition: Now that we have seen the real intent of the Arabs, let’s look at our final point. Three, let’s look at the consequences of a Palestinian state.
A sovereign state has the right to full control over its borders. There is nothing that could prevent a Palestinian state from importing weapons and soldiers from other Arab states.
A Palestinian state could make alliances with such terror states as Syria, Iraq, Libya.
States control water rights. This would give the Palestinians control over 30% of Israel’s water supply.
When asked about the possibility of signing an agreement with the Palestinians curtailing it’s ability to raise an army or make alliances, Israeli Foreign Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in a speech on May 12, 2002: “Within a short time, the Palestinian state would demand to have all these rights and would realize them, whether we agreed or not. The world will not stand in the way of allowing the Palestinian state to appropriate all this authority, but it would stand in our way if we tried to prevent it from realizing these rights”
The Palestinians have proven that their word is worthless. They have broken the 1993 Oslo Accords by smuggling weapons, polluting water sources, building an army, creating military ties with Iraq and Iran, and organizing terror against Israel.
In conclusion, we have taken a hard look at whether the Palestinians really are the victim of Israeli tyranny. 1) We have seen that there never was an historical Palestinian people or state. 2) Arab failure to destroy Israel in war has revealed the Arab’s true intent in creating the Palestinians. And 3) we have looked at the consequences of a Palestinian state.
Still need the clincher. Of course, it will go through numerous changes as I begin to practice it.
nope Smeags, t'wasn't me!
Up til 4:00 AM!! You wild man! ;)
I think I mentioned it; did you read it yet? It is a VERY interesting book. It is fiction, but I believe it mirrors the actual situation with the Arab refugees as it developed after the formation of the State of Israel.
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