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The New Hobbit Hole

Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog

Welcome to The New Hobbit Hole

Concerning Hobbits

The New Hobbit Chronicles

This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.

In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:

Our discussion has been light:

It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog

However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB

Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr

Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog

Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB

Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed

To the very philosophical:

…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla

To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…

…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB

Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog

…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1

Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed

-----------------------------------------

Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom

…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253

Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed

So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.


TOPICS: Books/Literature; Chit/Chat; Poetry; TV/Movies; The Hobbit Hole
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To: JenB
Thanks for the recommendations! :-) The title The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever sounds familiar, though I don't recall ever having read it.

Yes, we certainly need some real heroes. If only Ayn Rand had turned her pen to fantasy...

381 posted on 03/18/2002 5:32:22 PM PST by The_Expatriate
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To: The_Expatriate;JenB;MozartLover
Why only one face shot of the subject?

To show that it is deeds, not just a face, that trips my trigger!

382 posted on 03/18/2002 5:32:51 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: The_Expatriate
Well, if you like Ayn Rand you might enjoy the Thomas Covenant series. Not that they have anything in common but they're both kinda long and make people with a lot of religious values want to throw the book across the room. Just kidding. I've read Rand and her stuff is long but has an interesting point, one I disagree with but a point. Thomas Covenant does not. It's by Stephen Donaldson, btw.
383 posted on 03/18/2002 5:57:17 PM PST by JenB
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To: HairOfTheDog
Your vision of Middle Earth as a United Nations-style democracy is a disturbing one indeed; if there must be a one-world government, I'd prefer to think of it as a republic of autonomous 'states' (and as a good Southerner I believe these states should have the right to secede if they wish). I realize that 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, Chief Executive of Gondor' won't stir many hearts, but the price of liberty is high. :-)

To put in another two cents for home rule, Aragorn may well have issued an edict banning outside interference, but it was the local populace taking up arms against their oppressors that finally restored freedom to the Shire. Nothing quite like a little home-grown revolution!

Lest you think, however, that I tear through fantasy novels continually screaming "Death to the aristos!", I should say that I am a long-time fan of British literature and film, many of the best stories from which focus on the upper classes, so I certainly do understand the appeal. Don't take my libertarian opposition to the feudalism of LOTR too seriously!

384 posted on 03/18/2002 6:09:11 PM PST by The_Expatriate
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To: The_Expatriate
Don't take my libertarian opposition to the feudalism of LOTR too seriously!

Not a problem.

385 posted on 03/18/2002 6:16:36 PM PST by Samwise
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To: JenB
they're both kinda long...

Somewhat off-putting...

...and make people with a lot of religious values want to throw the book across the room.

but you've sold me! :-) Actually I think I'll stick to books that make a point, good, bad, or ugly. It's been a long time since I've read fantasy -- I was big into D&D in high school when I read my first fantasy novel (The Sword of Shannara, a Tolkien rip-off) -- and I've only recently re-read LOTR because of the movie. Where does one go after Tolkien? Any suggestions?

386 posted on 03/18/2002 6:21:15 PM PST by The_Expatriate
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To: The_Expatriate
And don't take my apparent support of aristocracy and condemnation of the democratic process too seriously either ;~D Of course we could support Aragorn as King... He came by it through hard work and heroism (and he is good lookin')... But his kids would be horrid spoiled heirs that would need to be overthrown.
387 posted on 03/18/2002 6:28:49 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: The_Expatriate
Well, I'd recommend the A Song of Ice and Fire series, George R. R. Martin. Starts with A Game of Thrones. However it's not yet finished, and it's got a few graphic scenes that I don't like. Also, Otherland by Tad Williams is one of the best series I've ever read. It's kinda more sci-fi than fantasy, but it has elements of both. The first book is City of Golden Shadow, and the whole thing is finished. Lots of neat homage to Tolkien!

Other than those, hmm... older stuff can be good. Without knowing your tastes I can't recommend anything specific.

388 posted on 03/18/2002 6:32:44 PM PST by JenB
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To: JenB; HairOfTheDog; Samwise; overtaxed; Penny1
Ok, here's a comment about Merry, after Pippin looks into the Palantir. (I talked about this briefly in the NZ Hobbit Hole, but have further thoughts on the matter.)

Pippin lies down to sleep and can't because he is restless from having touched the Palantir, right? He's trying desperately to talk to Merry about it and Merry basically brushes him off because he is tired. Merry doesn't get just how bad the situation is with Pippin. He just wants to sleep. So Pippin quits reaching out to Merry reluctantly (He even says "It doesn't help much to get no more from you than a you-can't-have-it-so-go-to-sleep!")

So, after all Pippin had done for Merry during their abduction by the orcs, Merry doesn't have a moment to give to Pippin.

Alright...on the NZ thread, I mentioned that when everyone else is staring at Pippin after he gave that cry while looking at the Palantir, Merry turns away. I thought at first that he turned away to spare his friend embarrassment. Now, however, I wonder if he didn't turn away out of shame, for having not listened to his friend, that had done so much for him.

389 posted on 03/18/2002 7:01:51 PM PST by 2Jedismom
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To: 2Jedismom
hmmm... Maybe! It is as conceivable as the other theory... I shall have to read it again with that in mind!
390 posted on 03/18/2002 7:17:58 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: JenB
Thanks for your answer. But as to "why must it be an either/or thing", well, because it IS. Either Boromir intended to steal the ring by force from the start, or he succumbed to its evil influence in "The Breaking of the Fellowship". Frankly, I'm a little shocked that nobody seems to see what seems so clear to me in text.
391 posted on 03/18/2002 7:24:13 PM PST by Burr5
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To: Burr5
BTW, is this where you'll all be during the Oscars?
392 posted on 03/18/2002 7:33:17 PM PST by Burr5
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To: HairOfTheDog;The_Expatriate
A brief comment on the Democracy vs Aristocracy thing, not to get too heavy. In the known 4000 years of world history, democracies existed in some of the city states of Greece for part of the two hundred years from about 500 BC to 350 BC, and in some other states, including Rome, up to the last part of the first century BC. Since then, with minor exceptions (Iceland, Switzerland), free republics have existed only in much of the western world, starting with the US at the end of the 18th century, and spreading to include most western countries. In recent decades freedom has become ever more limited in most of these countries, and now we see increasing restrictions on both the first and second amendments to our constitution, among others.

In the past the change from republic to monarchy has been occasioned by invasion (e.g. the Germanic invasions of the Roman Empire), civil war between social classes (e.g. the Greek city-states), and by people demanding safety and subsidies from their political leaders (e.g. Rome). The change from monarchy to stable republic has only come when people are willing to restrict the state and keep it weak.

It seems to me that it has been demonstrated that autocracies are the natural form of government for all but the most virtuous and self-restrained peoples, a category that no longer includes the citizens of our country. For the rest, the Ring of Power will come to Rule Them All.

/End of Rant.

393 posted on 03/18/2002 9:18:52 PM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: HairOfTheDog
As benevolent dictators go, Aragorn would certainly be my first choice of characters as well...but what makes you think that Aragorn and Arwen would allow their kids to grow up spoiled?
394 posted on 03/19/2002 2:11:29 AM PST by The_Expatriate
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To: JenB
I must admit I've never heard of either of the series you mentioned (a reflection on my limited exposure to the genre), but I look forward to venturing into unknown territory. Thanks!
395 posted on 03/19/2002 2:24:12 AM PST by The_Expatriate
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To: 2Jedismom
Now, however, I wonder if he didn't turn away out of shame, for having not listened to his friend, that had done so much for him.

That sounds plausible. But Merry should give himself a break. He was tired and he didn't know what the palantir was. How was he supposed to know that it was dangerous or that Pippin was not just being a Took? :)

396 posted on 03/19/2002 2:28:16 AM PST by Overtaxed
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To: Burr5
BTW, is this where you'll all be during the Oscars?

The plan isto hang out at our Yahoo Hobbit Hole chat room. Come join us!

397 posted on 03/19/2002 2:30:16 AM PST by Overtaxed
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Good (if sobering) rant. Have you by any chance ever read Democracy: The God that Failed: The Economics and Politics of Monarchy, Democracy, and Natural Order by Hans-Hermann Hoppe? Though Hoppe is a libertarian/anarcho-capitalist Misesian economist, his book does point out several aspects in which monarchy is preferable to democracy.
398 posted on 03/19/2002 2:37:16 AM PST by The_Expatriate
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To: The_Expatriate
Did I get 400?
399 posted on 03/19/2002 3:13:36 AM PST by DonnerT
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To: DonnerT
Yep I Did!
400 posted on 03/19/2002 3:14:31 AM PST by DonnerT
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