The New Hobbit Hole

[The_Expatriate]

Thanks for the recommendations! :-) The title The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever sounds familiar, though I don't recall ever having read it.

Yes, we certainly need some real heroes. If only Ayn Rand had turned her pen to fantasy...

[HairOfTheDog]

Why only one face shot of the subject?

To show that it is deeds, not just a face, that trips my trigger!

[JenB]

Well, if you like Ayn Rand you might enjoy the Thomas Covenant series. Not that they have anything in common but they're both kinda long and make people with a lot of religious values want to throw the book across the room. Just kidding. I've read Rand and her stuff is long but has an interesting point, one I disagree with but a point. Thomas Covenant does not. It's by Stephen Donaldson, btw.

[The_Expatriate]

Your vision of Middle Earth as a United Nations-style democracy is a disturbing one indeed; if there must be a one-world government, I'd prefer to think of it as a republic of autonomous 'states' (and as a good Southerner I believe these states should have the right to secede if they wish). I realize that 'I am Aragorn son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, Chief Executive of Gondor' won't stir many hearts, but the price of liberty is high. :-)

To put in another two cents for home rule, Aragorn may well have issued an edict banning outside interference, but it was the local populace taking up arms against their oppressors that finally restored freedom to the Shire. Nothing quite like a little home-grown revolution!

Lest you think, however, that I tear through fantasy novels continually screaming "Death to the aristos!", I should say that I am a long-time fan of British literature and film, many of the best stories from which focus on the upper classes, so I certainly do understand the appeal. Don't take my libertarian opposition to the feudalism of LOTR too seriously!

[Samwise]

Don't take my libertarian opposition to the feudalism of LOTR too seriously!

Not a problem.

[The_Expatriate]

they're both kinda long...

Somewhat off-putting...

...and make people with a lot of religious values want to throw the book across the room.

but you've sold me! :-) Actually I think I'll stick to books that make a point, good, bad, or ugly. It's been a long time since I've read fantasy -- I was big into D&D in high school when I read my first fantasy novel (The Sword of Shannara, a Tolkien rip-off) -- and I've only recently re-read LOTR because of the movie. Where does one go after Tolkien? Any suggestions?

[HairOfTheDog]

And don't take my apparent support of aristocracy and condemnation of the democratic process too seriously either ;~D Of course we could support Aragorn as King... He came by it through hard work and heroism (and he is good lookin')... But his kids would be horrid spoiled heirs that would need to be overthrown.

[JenB]

Well, I'd recommend the A Song of Ice and Fire series, George R. R. Martin. Starts with A Game of Thrones. However it's not yet finished, and it's got a few graphic scenes that I don't like. Also, Otherland by Tad Williams is one of the best series I've ever read. It's kinda more sci-fi than fantasy, but it has elements of both. The first book is City of Golden Shadow, and the whole thing is finished. Lots of neat homage to Tolkien!

Other than those, hmm... older stuff can be good. Without knowing your tastes I can't recommend anything specific.

[2Jedismom]

Ok, here's a comment about Merry, after Pippin looks into the Palantir. (I talked about this briefly in the NZ Hobbit Hole, but have further thoughts on the matter.)

Pippin lies down to sleep and can't because he is restless from having touched the Palantir, right? He's trying desperately to talk to Merry about it and Merry basically brushes him off because he is tired. Merry doesn't get just how bad the situation is with Pippin. He just wants to sleep. So Pippin quits reaching out to Merry reluctantly (He even says "It doesn't help much to get no more from you than a you-can't-have-it-so-go-to-sleep!")

So, after all Pippin had done for Merry during their abduction by the orcs, Merry doesn't have a moment to give to Pippin.

Alright...on the NZ thread, I mentioned that when everyone else is staring at Pippin after he gave that cry while looking at the Palantir, Merry turns away. I thought at first that he turned away to spare his friend embarrassment. Now, however, I wonder if he didn't turn away out of shame, for having not listened to his friend, that had done so much for him.

[HairOfTheDog]

hmmm... Maybe! It is as conceivable as the other theory... I shall have to read it again with that in mind!

[Burr5]

Thanks for your answer. But as to "why must it be an either/or thing", well, because it IS. Either Boromir intended to steal the ring by force from the start, or he succumbed to its evil influence in "The Breaking of the Fellowship". Frankly, I'm a little shocked that nobody seems to see what seems so clear to me in text.

[Burr5]

BTW, is this where you'll all be during the Oscars?

[Lucius Cornelius Sulla]

A brief comment on the Democracy vs Aristocracy thing, not to get too heavy. In the known 4000 years of world history, democracies existed in some of the city states of Greece for part of the two hundred years from about 500 BC to 350 BC, and in some other states, including Rome, up to the last part of the first century BC. Since then, with minor exceptions (Iceland, Switzerland), free republics have existed only in much of the western world, starting with the US at the end of the 18th century, and spreading to include most western countries. In recent decades freedom has become ever more limited in most of these countries, and now we see increasing restrictions on both the first and second amendments to our constitution, among others.

In the past the change from republic to monarchy has been occasioned by invasion (e.g. the Germanic invasions of the Roman Empire), civil war between social classes (e.g. the Greek city-states), and by people demanding safety and subsidies from their political leaders (e.g. Rome). The change from monarchy to stable republic has only come when people are willing to restrict the state and keep it weak.

It seems to me that it has been demonstrated that autocracies are the natural form of government for all but the most virtuous and self-restrained peoples, a category that no longer includes the citizens of our country. For the rest, the Ring of Power will come to Rule Them All.

/End of Rant.

[The_Expatriate]

As benevolent dictators go, Aragorn would certainly be my first choice of characters as well...but what makes you think that Aragorn and Arwen would allow their kids to grow up spoiled?

[The_Expatriate]

I must admit I've never heard of either of the series you mentioned (a reflection on my limited exposure to the genre), but I look forward to venturing into unknown territory. Thanks!

[Overtaxed]

Now, however, I wonder if he didn't turn away out of shame, for having not listened to his friend, that had done so much for him.

That sounds plausible. But Merry should give himself a break. He was tired and he didn't know what the palantir was. How was he supposed to know that it was dangerous or that Pippin was not just being a Took? :)

[Overtaxed]

BTW, is this where you'll all be during the Oscars?

The plan isto hang out at our Yahoo Hobbit Hole chat room. Come join us!

[The_Expatriate]

Good (if sobering) rant. Have you by any chance ever read Democracy: The God that Failed: The Economics and Politics of Monarchy, Democracy, and Natural Order by Hans-Hermann Hoppe? Though Hoppe is a libertarian/anarcho-capitalist Misesian economist, his book does point out several aspects in which monarchy is preferable to democracy.

[DonnerT]

Did I get 400?

[DonnerT]

Yep I Did!