Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
I've never had a filling or any dental work...I'd be inconsolable too...sorry...
Well, some (gulp) 25 years later, I'm not sure I'd offer the same argument myself.
then it's a good thing that *I* didn't weigh in...Ive given myself a few days to calm down.
WFTR, if you are still checking into our room, let me say it was a very brave thing for you to have shared these points of view with us. You are not the first one to say they did not like the movie. I can only respond by saying "to each his own", but honey-child, I really don't know what it is you were looking for.
Suffice it to say, if I may comment just a wee bit on your first point, in reference to Aragorn, PJ's version helped me to see Aragorn in a completely new light, because quite frankly dear, I REALLY REALLY did not like the Book Aragorn...AT ALL. I wouldn't say he was arrogant, but he had a definite attitude that did not endear the character very well. Along with the style of writing that Tolkien changed for the character, which was stiff and 'kingly' (I guess), Book Aragorn's entire approach to life seemed to be "uh, well, that was SUPPOSED to happen, cause you know, I'm gonna be king!" It was only when he was with the hobbits that I had any inkling that he might be a really neat guy to cheer for.
It could be also that I am all too American in my ideals and would arguely quite vociferously with Tolkien himself about the merits of a monarchy...but that's just me being the upstart attitudinal Yankee that I am.
What I am trying to say is, I thought Viggo made an EXCELLENT Aragorn...and of course he is all stringy and grungy and gross "I look foul and feel fair." Wouldn't you when you have spent most of your adult life gallavanting about the Wildes of Eregion, fending off the nasty folk from the Shire and dealing with utterly worthless refuse of society??
And my emotions really got out of hand when you suggested Timothy Dalton. Honey...darlin'...sweetheart...are you nuts? NO, really. I don't understand your preference. Timothy Dalton was a BAD BAD BAD actor. IF you had said Sean Connery (if we stick within the James Bond realm here), THEN I probably would be applauding you. But your choice has me wondering who you consider to be a GOOD actor? And I disagree....he looks nowhere near 'kingly'. what is a king supposed to look like anyway??? Great Britain has Prince Charles in the running to become king...does *HE* look kingly??? I think not!!!
Anyway, PJ completely converted me on Aragorn...AND Viggo...cause I have to tell you, I had seen Viggo in another production and while I thought he did an excellent job in that one, I was not at all sold on the idea of his taking on the role of Aragorn. I was dead set to hate him when I walked into the theater...and I came out going "WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!!! I *LIKE* him!!!"
But you know, darlin...this is all just personal preference and like religion, no argument in the world is going to establish whose is a better opinion. Our preferences are just that: opinion. So I do hope you will forgive me if I just throw in my worthless two pence in and say, I disagree VERY VERY VERY strongly with ALL thirty points.
If I add any more than that, it will be me just beating up on your personal preferences. And I don't come to the Hobbit Hole to do that. You guys are just way too much fun to antagonize!!!
Grrrr....I have got to start paying attention...
I miss him.
It's a beautiful area. Too bad it's close to the People's Republic of Charlottesville. Plus, I like being closer to the coast.
You know, I had forgotten all about that...I guess I blocked that nightmare effectively...thanks for reminding me Hair...grumble grumble...
...trust me..you don't want a Navy dentist anywhere near your mouth...I've had neither fillings, braces, crowns...
BTW, I wasn't bragging...I used small font to try and avoid sounding like I was...didn't work I guess...
25 years, huh?...man, you got one foot in the grave...look at the bright side...for a dwarf, you're a punk kid...
Yup...pretty much every squid and jarhead gets his wisdom teeth yanked...
Me too friend...me too...
Okay, I can't resist weighing in on this point either. WRTF's concern that it is a 'feminist' consipiracy is WAAY off base IMHO...I am as anti-feminazi as a female can get, y'all...and this never once occured to me in any form of cynacism. I was GLAD PJ brought Arwen to the forefront...not be cause there is a surplus of men that need to be counteracted...and not because I wanted to 'butch' her up...but because in READING THE BOOK, I DON'T REALLY GIVE A DARN ABOUT ARWEN...OR ARAGORN...OR THAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IN LOVE WITH EACH OTHER.
And don't give me the usual crap about 'women were supposed to be sweet and retiring and adored from afar and not do any demanding things like fend for themselves or know how to travel in the wilderness'. Its not feminazi for me to object to that...its pure historical reference. I get the idea that so many people think Arwen should not be any stronger than weak tea in character because of the typical medieval ideal of courtly love...which put women on pedestals and kept them from anything more dangerous than a hangnail. I like PJ's view of the historical reference as drawing from BEYOND historical reference when women did have stronger influence in society and probably had every bit of training as a soldier. There are several VERY strong military activly warrior like women in English history (Buttica, Helen of Aquitane, Joan d'Arc).
And who the heck was Glorfindel anyway?? Pantywaste if you ask me!!! He put Frodo on a horse and sent him forward to meet up with the Black Riders ALONE!!!!!. STUPID Elf, if you ask me. Arwen took him under her protection and fought like mad to get him away. THAT is what an elf should do...THAT is what a woman who wishes to protect a smaller one would do. Having Arwen replace Glorfindel and wrapping Frodo up and protecting him was a STRONG maternal and elven message for the character...and I thought it was BRILLIANT that PJ had Arwen passing on the 'grace' Frodo needed to heal in the beginning (this was done in Minas Tirith when Frodo went to tell Aragorn that he wanted to go home). It means a HELL of a lot more that Arwen is established as someone who gives a damn about the hobbits and Frodo in particular and will mean that much more to Frodo leaving for Beyond the Sea.
In short, in some ways, I believe PJ IMPROVED Tolkien's work.
I thought Arwen was brilliant. I meant compare the way PJ had Arwen and Aragorn sharing their thoughts with each other to Lucas' p*ss-poor imitation of love in AOTC...I was gagging all through out their little 'trysts.' I kept thinking how stupid Amidala was and the little bimbette deserved a creep like Anakin, especially if she wasn't going to bring him to task on some of his more arrogant ideas. And that little 'fireside' chat and the little act of 'oh I cant believe you're making a pass at me while I sit here in my provocative black dress and hair down and giggle and flirt and then say you shouldnt have kissed me'...ACK!!!!!!!!!!!!
what a bimbo.
yeah, compare that to Arwen telling Aragorn "it is mine to give to whom I wish...like my heart..."
*WOW!*
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