Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
Don't get me started Jen. I left "those threads" for a reason. 
I hope no one here is French....
Ahem, my first ancestors here (after the Cherokee, of course) were French Huguenots who arrived in Virginia in the late 1600s...
What? You mean to say that you liked the snooty Elves? :)
About Aragorn. I wasn't really thrilled with Viggo either at first...but then he kind of grew on me. I think the grubbiness was a way of doing the "look foul"/"feel fair" part and I'd have liked to see that scene at the Prancing Pony. The way PJ did that was shorter and had the zip needed in a movie. I think they overdid the self-doubt stuff just a bit. There is some self doubt on Aragorn's part in the book but there was never any doubt (on Aragorn's or Elrond's part) that Aragorn meant to claim the kingship.
About Arwen the scene-stealing Elf. I think that she had to be given a bigger role in the movie or else Aragorn would look like a total jerk when he spurns Eowyn.
28. Aragorn never fought orcs during the attack. He went to the seats of hearing and seeing alone and then returned at the sound of Boromir's horn.
29. No one saw Frodo and Sam leaving. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli drew their conclusion from the evidence at the campsite after the attack.
The biggest problem I have with the movie is that too many see Frodo leaving and they just let him go! I liked it better when Frodo sneaked away to protect his friends. But then I realize that Aragorn had to pass his ring test at some point and since they changed the part at the Prancing Pony, they put it there. I don't really have a problem with the final orc battle scene...it's a movie after all. :)
It is a movie after all. Things need to be compressed, number of characters kept to a minimum, and add enough action and other "movie stuff" (like talking rings) to appeal to average movie goers (or else they wouldn't recoup production costs.) After I saw it the first time I spent a while thinking about the changes that had been made, more or less got over them (except for the snooty Elves!), and enjoyed the movie more on the second viewing.
Obviously, I disagree with everyone about most other aspects of the movie. It's not a big issue. I'll just avoid the rest of them.
Again, I'm not trying to doubt the dedication or any other quality of JRRT fans who liked the movie. I'm just saying that I was extremely disappointed and that the issues over which I felt disappointment are not things that will change with a second viewing.
If I comment more, I'll just be....sorry. I'll just choose to not let your Hobbitier than Thou attitude spoil my enjoyment of the movie...
Sorry.
ROFLOL! You've been hanging out in the religious threads too long!
Morning (almost afternoon)all!
Up earlier than usual this morning, because we had to go out to a football practice and parents' meeting. Love those meetings where they tell you "you didn't pay enough and we still need you to work your butt off..."
I don't mind participating, but I really wanted Corin, Jr. to play baseball. Plus I'm spending all my free time and money trying to keep a neighborhood swimming pool open. Football is just too darned expensive. I already wrote them a check for $125, bought him cleats, will have to buy him new practice pants before Monday, and they're not even practicing in equipment yet...
Okay, I'm done now. 
While I agree with your points technically, I don't let the changes bother me. I rationalize that they didn't change the goal of the movie, only some of the means of getting there. The tactics, not the strategy, if you will.
For instance, let me analyze one of the biggest changes: the substitution of Arwen in place of Lord Glorfindel. In the book, Lord Glorfindel and his magnificent white horse meet Aragorn and the Hobbits on the road to Rivendell. He helps to ease Frodo's wound a bit, hurries them along the road, and eventually gives his horse to Frodo so that Frodo can make it across the river before the Ring Wraiths get him. So, what is necessary in this scene?
Is Glorfindel necessary? Well, he's a fairly minor character who plays no further significant role once Frodo is across the river. He eased Frodo's wound, but it can be assumed that most any Elf can do that. What is really needed in this scene is the horse, because that is the means for Frodo to escape the Wraiths. Again, any Elf can ride up on a horse.
So if Glorfindel himself isn't necessary, who can we have in his place? Well, most any Elf will do... but how about one who is necessary to the story later on? An Elf who has quite an important role in the story, if only in the background in the book. Arwen, for instance. After all, it's for her sake that Aragorn is striving to be king in the first place (it was a condition placed on him by Elrond... no marrying my daughter until you're the king!) Introducing Arwen at this time accomplishes several things in the movie: it lets the audience meet her, it lets the audience know she's involved with Aragorn, and it lets the audience grow more sympathetic to her character by seeing her help rescue Frodo, than it would if they only saw her lurking in the background at the Council meeting.
Analyzed in this way, switching Glorfindel to Arwen makes perfect sense, for a movie that must be presented in a limited time, with a limited cast, and a limited budget. That's why I can forgive this and other changes made from the book, because I see them as being necessary for the movie adaptation and more importantly, not changing the overall spirit of the books.
Now, if you want to talk about a movie that diverged wildly from it's source book, we can talk about Starship Troopers....
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