Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
It is hard to take a good photograph while you are being violently ill!!
Yeah, I was c.1000 posts behind when I got back from Atlanta, now that I've been home a few days, I'm even further behind, even though I'm trying to catch up.
That's kind of like Huckleberry Finn wondering why a Frenchman couldn't speak like a "man."
To say that I hate the movie might be too strong. I was extremely disappointed at many of the changes. I was particularly disappointed at what I thought were misrepresentations of the characters. Anyway, I've written a list of Top 30 things that I didn't like about Fellowship of the Ring. While I'm serious about them, I hope that they provide more entertainment than strife.
Top 30 Things I didn't like about FOTR
1. While I realized that it is hard for a director to find actors who look exactly the way a character from a book should look, I was particularly disappointed in Aragorn. The actor who played him may be a good person and good actor, but I think he has the wrong look for Aragorn. I think he looks a little too much like a "surfer dude," a mechanic in a seedy garage, or two-bit thug.
I can't name an ideal Aragorn, but the closest may be Timothy Dalton as looked when he played James Bond in those two Bond movies of the late 80's and early 90's. I think he could give the character the right look of a king in exile. I think Aragorn should look clearly older than Boromir. Aragorn was an older man who still appeared in his prime because of his true blood line from the kings. Timothy Dalton once played a character in a low-budget, sword-opera, action film, and he played the part very well. Maybe he would have been too old for this one, but he would have been my choice.
2. In the book, Aragorn did not question his own place as the king ready to claim the throne. The self-doubt and angst portrayed in the movie were a perversion of his character.
3. In the book, Elrond did not question Aragorn's place or fitness to be king because Aragorn had lived in the North for so long. The rangers had taken their place in the north because the time was not yet right to reveal the king in Gondor. For the king to have lived in Gondor under those circumstances would have created strife and confusion with the stewards. Furthermore, the prophecies said that the king should come out of the north and that hobbits would play some part. Therefore, the rangers stayed in the north in order to protect the Shire secretly. Having Elrond question Aragorn's fitness for this reason greatly diminished the Elrond character.
4. The ring did not cause anyone to hear little voices.
5. Gandalf was not afraid to touch the ring when Bilbo gave it up in Bag End. When Bilbo dropped it, Gandalf quickly picked it up, put it in the envelope, and put it on the mantel. He was afraid of temptation, but he wasn't silly about it.
6. Pippin did not reveal Frodo's real name in the main room at the Prancing Pony. Pippin only started to mention the birthday party when Frodo interrupted him.
7. Aragorn did not force himself on Frodo at the inn. Instead, Aragorn had to prove himself as someone who could be trusted. Later, his claim was strengthened by Gandalf's letter. Having Aragorn force himself on Frodo in the movie cheapened the entire relationship.
8. Aragorn didn't give the hobbits their swords. While there may not have been time to do the barrows and Tom Bombadil properly in the movie, I would have armed them some other way.
9. Arwen did not meet Aragorn and the hobbits on the road west of Rivendell. No matter how much political correctness screams for a female character riding a horse and appearing to take part in an action scene, putting her in this position was wrong. Political correctness should have been spanked and told to go do the laundry. Aragorn was met by the sons of Elrond.
10. No one carried Frodo across the river towards Rivendell. He made that ride alone and started up the opposite bank. He stopped and turned to face the dark riders because the ring called him to return to them. His own will made him want to challenge them, but they wanted him to stop. Likewise, they didn't get caught in the rising river because they chose to go too far. Aragorn, the sons of Elrond, and the other hobbits spooked the horses into the river by jumping at them with torches.
11. Gimli did not try to break the ring with an ax at the council of Elrond.
12. Frodo volunteered to take the ring to Mordor during a time of great silence at the council of Elrond. There was no professional wrestling moment where everyone jumped to his feet and started shouting.
13. Gandalf and Saruman did not get into a physical fight at Isengard, and Saruman did not ask Gandalf to join Sauron's side. He asked Gandalf to join his side.
14. I thought that the hobbits were treated too much like children in the movie.
15. The tower at Orthanc was perfectly smooth as we learn when the Ents attack. The tower in the movie is full of ridges as if it had long windows.
16. Gandalf was alone when the eagle rescued him.
17. Gandalf was never afraid of the trip through Moria. Nothing he ever did was done with concern for his own safety in mind. He was the one who had advocated Moria from the beginning. Aragorn was against the trip through Moria because he foresaw some danger to Gandalf. I was greatly disappointed by the portrayal of Gandalf acting on his fears for his own safety.
18. Frodo did not discover the secret of opening the gate to Moria. Gandalf did.
19. Gimli did not expect the dwarves to be ruling Moria. He had a deep hope that they were still there and alive, but he was prepared to find them dead or gone. The dwarves of the Mountain hadn't heard from Moria in many years and were afraid that Balin's people had perished. Gimli only found what he expected and feared to find.
20. There were no dead dwarves or signs of struggle at the beginning of the trip through Moria.
21. The cave troll did not fight a long battle with the company in the chamber of Balin's tomb. He threw his spear and Frodo at the beginning of the fight and was quickly killed.
22. The orcs never surrounded the company on their escape from Balin's tomb. Instead, a line of fire laid down to stop the company's escape kept the orcs from coming close to them.
23. The company stayed a month in Lothlorien and not the single day that the movie implies.
24. The actress who played Galadriel was close enough to the right look, but the movie's character wasn't right. Galadriel charmed each of the members of the company. Boromir didn't like her, but she was gracious and friendly to them all. She was not some strange, expressionless lady speaking in riddles and otherworldly mumbo jumbo.
25. Galadriel and Celeborn gave the company elfin cloaks that they wore on their departure from Lothlorien.
26. No one talked to Frodo about Gollum until the river trip, and that conversation was with Aragorn and not Gandalf.
27. Frodo wore the ring from the time of Boromir's attack until he was in the boat. He never spoke to Aragorn and was never seen by Merry and Pippin.
28. Aragorn never fought orcs during the attack. He went to the seats of hearing and seeing alone and then returned at the sound of Boromir's horn.
29. No one saw Frodo and Sam leaving. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli drew their conclusion from the evidence at the campsite after the attack.
30. Even granting the fact that the ring would have a greater effect as Sauron's power grew, I think the movie made the difference in perceptions between living in the real world and wearing the ring too great. If Bilbo had gone into the cloudy wraith zone when he first put on the ring in his encounter with Gollum, he would have figured out that the ring had some effect and not learned it only by listening to Gollum. Likewise, he would not have used it as casually during his adventures or just to escape other hobbits in the Shire if it had cast him into such an otherworldly state.
On the positive side, I thought that they did a pretty good job with the introduction and the battle where Sauron lost the ring. Gandalf, Saruman, and Legolas looked pretty much as I had always pictured them. I'm less bothered by the shortcuts than I was initially, but I probably would have cut some scenes in order to make the entire story more true to the book. I had never pictured most of the places in enough detail to be disappointed or surprised at how they were portrayed in the movie. I wasn't as impressed as others have been, but everything looked nice.
WFTR
Bill
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