Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
Oh he's not that bad! :)
He's supposed to get the Hobbits lost on the way to Rivendell...so the Black Riders can't find them. It's not like he had no clue where he was. To me, choosing the Cadharas route is saner than trying Moria. So that plan didn't work out. It happens (expecting Aragorn to be omniscient is a bit much).
He doesn't know whether to go with Frodo or with Boromir at the end of the Fellowship.
Well, Frodo. I fear that the burden is laid upon you. You are the Bearer appointed by the Council. Your own way you alone can choose. In this matter I cannot advise you. I am not Gandalf, and though I have tried to bear his part, I do not know what design or hope he had for this hour, if indeed he had any. Most likely it seems that if he were here now the choice would still wait on you.His decision depended on Frodo's decision.
As for the angst at Boromir's death, would you want to follow a leader that didn't care that one of his companions died?
Maybe he told her she was "just a girl." :))
In the book, he leads the Hobbits off the trail from Weathertop, but then he gets lost. (Which I would too if I were in the woods... don't follow me, I need street signs)
After Boromir's death, the angst isn't about Boromir, it's about Aragorn. Everything I do comes to nothing...
You're right about waiting for Frodo... he couldn't really decide what to do until then. But you don't get that in the movie. In the movie, he was following Frodo to the end. It was only after the confrontation, that he let Frodo go.
The movie Aragorn is more sharply drawn. But, you have to do that in a movie where you are just one of 9 supporting characters. In the books, I have pages to devote to angst and self-doubt. That's what makes his transformation after looking in the palantir so amazing.
In the book, he leads the Hobbits off the trail from Weathertop, but then he gets lost.
Maybe he doesn't come out where he originally wanted on the way from Weathertop. But after one quick scouting trip, he's back on course.
After Boromir's death, the angst isn't about Boromir, it's about Aragorn. Everything I do comes to nothing...
That sounds to me more like what anyone would say when they've had a bad day. :)
But the first time I read the book (I only read it once, then saw the movie) Aragorn wasn't one of my favorites. Now he is, and I appreciate the movie Aragorn for all the same reasons JenB does and I appreciate the book Aragorn. Of the two, the book Aragorn has more shades of gray. The movie Aragorn does not. But again, Jackson doesn't have the time to give Aragorn all the shades that Tolkien gave him.
What makes Aragorn a good king in the books is all the shades of gray. His 80 years learning how to be king makes him a great king.
It always seemed to me that in the book, although he is unsure of himself to some extent, after Gandalf dies and the Breaking of the Fellowship, as to whether his methods are working (you got to admit he had a run of really bad luck!), he is utterly sure of his goal, which is to become King of Gondor and Arnor so he can marry Arwen. He's spent 40 years working steadily towards this goal.
In the movie, OTOH, Elrond says to Gandalf that Aragorn has exiled himself, implying that he has decided not to pursue the Crown. Thie implies to me that he is supposed to be unsure not only of his tactics, but even of whether he wants to try to be King.
The scene with Aragorn/Arwen where she cheers him up with her faith in him is not realistic, IMHO, for that time in Aragorn's life. Although it might be very appropriate for the period 40 years or so earlier when they get engaged. They've obviously compressed some of the history of their relationship timewise. I don't have a real problem with that, as I think it works fairly well. The only alternative would be some type of flashback scene to Lorien, which would just confuse the newbies no end.
In the movie, the implication is that it isn't until Boromir lies dieing that Aragorn decides to fight for and defend the people of Gondor. In the book, he has always intended to fight for the Numenoreans (after all, he has been doing it for 60 years), the only question is over tactics.
I guess PJ is attempting to compress the whole history of Aragorn's life and character development and the Aragorn/Arwen relationship into the timespan of the movie. Not a bad idea, just very different from what I got out of the book.
ITA! If the man doesn't have faith in himself at 80, it's just not going to happen. LOL
In the movie, you get the sense that Aragorn doesn't want to be king... which gives more credence to Boromir's "Gondor has no king, Gondor needs no king."
Boromir is right. Why would Gondor need a king that doesn't care anything about Gondor?
Yeah, take that all you Boromir-bashers!
But what you don't find out unless you read the Appendices is that Aragorn has been defending Gondor all along under an assumed name. Of course that's for book-Aragorn only. I don't get much sense of Aragorn's past in the movie (except for the Arwen thing).
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