Posted on 03/14/2002 5:07:26 AM PST by HairOfTheDog
This is a continuation of the infamous thread New Zealander Builds Hobbit Hole originally posted on January 26, 2001 by John Farson, who at the time undoubtedly thought he had found a rather obscure article that would elicit a few replies and die out. Without knowing it, he became the founder of the Hobbit Hole. For reasons incomprehensible to some, the thread grew to over 4100 replies. It became the place for hobbits and friends of hobbits to chit chat and share LoTR news and views, hang out, and talk amongst ourselves in the comfort of familiar surroundings.
In keeping with the new posting guidelines, the thread idea is continuing here, as will the Green Dragon Inn, our more structured spin-off thread, as soon as we figure out how to move all the good discussion that has been had there. As for the Hobbit Hole, we will just start fresh, bringing only a few mathoms such as the picture above with us to make it feel like home, and perhaps a walk down memory lane:
Our discussion has been light:
It very well may be that a thread named "New Zealander builds Hobbit hole" will end up being the longest Tolkien thread of them all, with some of the best heartfelt content... Sorry John, but I would have rather it had been one with a more distinguished title!… post 252 - HairOfTheDog
However, I can still celebrate, with quiet dignity, the fact that what started as a laugh about some wacko in New Zealand has mutated and grown into a multifaceted discussion of the art, literature, and philosophy that is Tolkien. And now that I've managed to write the most pompous sentence of my entire life, I agree, Rosie… post 506 - JenB
Hah! I was number 1000!! (Elvish victory dance... wait, no; that would be too flitty) … post 1001 - BibChr
Real men don't have to be afraid of being flitty! Go for it. – post 1011 – HairOfTheDog
Seventeen years to research one mystical object seems a bit excessive… post 1007 - JenB
Okay...who's the wise guy who didn't renew Gandalf's research grant?… post 1024 – Overtaxed
To the very philosophical:
…Judas Iscariot obviously was a good man, or he wouldn't have been chosen to be one of the Apostles. He loved Jesus, like all of the Apostles, but he betrayed him. Yet without his betrayal, the Passion and Crucifixion would never have occurred, and mankind would not have been redeemed. So without his self-destruction infinite good would not have been accomplished. I certainly do not mean this to be irreverant but it seems to me that this describes the character of Gollum, in the scenes so movingly portrayed above… Lucius Cornelius Sulla
To fun but heartfelt debates about the integrity and worth of some of the characters…
…Anyone else notice how Boromir treats the hobbits? He's very fond of them but he seems to think of them as children - ruffling Frodo's hair, calls them all 'little ones'. He likes them, but I don't think he really respects them… post 1536 - JenB
Yes... Tolkien told us not to trust Boromir right off the bat when he began to laugh at Bilbo, until he realized that the Council obviously held this hobbit in high esteem. What a pompous dolt… post 1538 - HairOfTheDog
…I think almost every fault of his can be traced directly back to his blindness to anything spiritual or unseen. He considers the halflings as children, because that is what they look like. He considers the only hope of the ring to be in taking it and using it for a victory in the physical realm. He cannot see what the hobbits are truly made of, he cannot see the unseen hope of what the destruction of the ring might mean--the destruction of Sauron himself, and he cannot see the unseen danger that lies in the use of the ring itself… I just feel sorry for Boromir--he is like a blind but honorable man, trying to take the right path on the road but missing the right path entirely because he simply cannot see it… post 1548 - Penny1
Boromir isn't a jerk, he's a jock… post 2401 – Overtaxed
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Oh, I think by the time Frodo reaches the Cracks, he's not even himself anymore! I think he's not only on the brink of a dangerous place physically, he's on the brink of losing himself completely during the exchange with Gollum. But for some reason, the take-over isn't complete till he actually has to throw the Ring in. The person speaking to Gollum is not Frodo, but the "Wheel of Fire" that Sam sees. After the Ring is destroyed, Frodo not only comes back to himself, but comes back with the unbearable (to him) knowledge of what it's like to be completely without compassion. I think that's why it's so important to him to be compassionate in the Shire… post 2506 - 2Jedismom
…Regarding Frodo's compassion... it's a little too much at the end. Even Merry tells him that he's going to have to quit being so darn nice. But you're right. He's learned a lesson about evil that very few ever learn since it wasn't an external lesson but an internal one. (Those kinds of lessons have the greatest impact) Not only did he totally succumb to it, but he was rather ruthless to my little Smeagol… post 2516 - carton253
Well that Frodo was a big mean bully! (to Smeagol)… post 2519 – Overtaxed
So as you can see, everything JRR Tolkien (and Peter Jackson) is welcome here in our New Row, our soon-to-be familiar New Hobbit Hole…; philosophy, opinion, good talk and frequent silliness.
What's for breakfast?
Heh, heh, morning Hair! ;^)
Looks like Hair needs extra coffee today. I wonder why. :)
I guess it's all in the presentation. History "sticks" better when I can see how it leads to where we are today and I like it most when I start wondering how it was for people living back when. Somehow I missed that with the Silmarillion. Maybe it was getting confused with all the people and place names that made it all jumble together.
I don't rightly know, except that it was most likely on the Keweenaw Peninsula (in the UP). The pic was "borrowed" from this page right here.
Lots of nice pics of the Upper Peninsula on that site... as an ex-pat yooper I love going to that site to remember "home".
Question: When do you think The Silmarillion should be read; before or after The Hobbit and or LOTR?
Yum! That will do very nicely, thank you!
I am still a bit wiped out from the trip yesterday. ...And content enough with my position that I may choose to not even take the bait you are trying to set out for me!
It is chilly but sunny. I expect it will be hot enough later to give my horse a bath.
I can make some up real quick!
I would say after both, but at least you should have read LoTR before tackling The Silmarillion.
Now what fun would that be?
Maybe we should start on Bill Gates/Microsoft.
It's complicated by the long and complex history of the stories that make up The Silmarillion. Some of them are among the oldest stories JRRT ever wrote, going back to the late 'teens (1915-1919). Jen can probably add more about this, but some of the stories went through 3 or more significant revisions; some of the stories existed as both brief overviews and very detailed narratives.
The reason for the many reworkings, revisions, and different narrative styles is that JRRT couldn't decide on a framework in which to present the stories; he went from tales told around a hearth fire (The Book of Lost Tales) to a more concise collection of legends and back again. All of that was complicated by the stories themselves changing over the 50+ years since he put the first versions on paper.
When I really got into reading The Book of Lost Tales earlier this year, I found the background history on the stories to be as interesting as the stories themselves. For instance, did you know in at least one version of the Tale of Beren and Luthien, Beren was an Elf? Amazing but true!
I would say, the first time reader should start with The Hobbit and/or LOTR before moving on to The Silmarillion. If you're already familiar with the stories, though, it's fun to start with The Silmarillion and then go on to the other two; it really gives a feeling for the 7000+ years of history that the books span.
But then JRRT came to his senses. ;^)
Seriously, having Beren as an elf would take away from the story, wouldn't it?
The version with the elf-Beren is the one presented in The Book of Lost Tales. I thought it did take away from the story, and apparently JRRT thought so too. If I read the history of it right, the earliest version of the story had Beren as a man; then JRRT switched him to a Noldoli elf (precursor to the Noldor); then switched him back to a man. Sauron, who appears in that tale, went through changes a lot more radical than that, however.
Same here, the first time I read them. After seeing the movie the first time last December, I decided to re-read all the books, starting with The Silmarillion and moving forward (skipping The Hobbit, because I don't have a copy of that book here in Texas). I found it made for an interesting difference, starting with the creation myth and reading through to the End of the Third Age.
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