[nathanbedford]

Suppose winning were defined to be, a Ukraine, at least a part of which remains geographically intact, sovereign, and free to make security alliances as it pleases.

Would you then concede that for Ukraine to win would be desirable?

[Captain Walker]

Suppose winning were defined to be, a Ukraine, at least a part of which remains geographically intact, sovereign, and free to make security alliances as it pleases.

Would you then concede that for Ukraine to win would be desirable?

Um, no.

I would extend to Russia the same courtesy we demand here in the US re: the Monroe Doctrine.

(IOW, if it was bad for Russia to put missiles in Cuba and JFK was correct in stopping them, then it's bad for the Ukraine to get in a security alliance with NATO where NATO can put arms close to Russia.)

[silverleaf]

Yes

In Ukraines case, who drew the political borders and what were they thinking?

That the hard core UKR nationalists and racial supremacists that allied with the WW2 Nazis would live harmoniously with a 1/3 Russophile population in a multi-ethnic multicultural state?

[rxh4n1]

“Suppose winning were defined to be, a Ukraine, at least a part of which remains geographically intact, sovereign, and free to make security alliances as it pleases.”

That is not Ukraine’s goal. They’ve loudly proclaimed they want all the stolen lands back, including the Crimea. So far, Ukraine has been unwilling to make territorial concessions. To achieve their maximalist goals will require a major expansion of the war.