Posted on 07/03/2025 5:38:42 PM PDT by Angelino97
I have just finished reading “The Old Covenant: Revoked or Not Revoked?” by Dr. Robert Sungenis. It is a study debunking the notion, now regnant in liberal theological circles, that the Old Covenant still stands side-by-side with the New Covenant.
According to this novelty, in essence, God’s “A Plan” and God’s “B Plan” are both currently pleasing to Him and both fully in effect.
Opposed to this, the Catholic Faith teaches that the Old Law — itself good, holy, and of divine origin — was a preparation for the New, and that the New Law superceded and fulfilled the Old.
Indeed, as Dr. Sungenis shows, Pope John Paul II affirmed the traditional teaching in a not-much-quoted passage of Redemptoris Mater: “Christ fulfills the divine promise and supersedes the old law.”
Years ago, I made an effort at debunking this vogue theology in an article on the Epistle to the Hebrews: A Better Testament. Dr. Sungenis quotes from Hebrews, but he does not limit himself to this, as the pilfered quotations below adequately show.
The following is a series of scriptural, patristic, and magisterial citations from “The Old Covenant: Revoked or Not Revoked?“:
Hebrews 7:18: “On the one hand, a former commandment is annulled because of its weakness and uselessness…”;
Hebrews 10:9: “Then he says, ‘Behold, I come to do your will.’ He takes away the first [covenant] to establish the second [covenant]…”;
2 Corinthians 3:14: “For to this day when they [the Jews] read the Old Covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away”;
Hebrews 8:7: “For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another”;
Colossians 2:14: “Having canceled the written code, with its decrees, that was against us and stood opposed to us; He took it away nailing it to the cross”;
Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, para. 29: “…the New Testament took the place of the Old Law which had been abolished…but on the gibbet of His death Jesus made void the Law with its decrees fastened the handwriting of the Old Testament to the Cross”;
The Catechism of the Council of Trent: “…the people, aware of the abrogation of the Mosaic Law…”;
Council of Florence: “that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic law…although they were suited to the divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began”;
Council of Trent: “but not even the Jews by the very letter of the law of Moses were able to be liberated or to rise therefrom”;
Cardinal Ratzinger: “Thus the Sinai [Mosaic] Covenant is indeed superseded” (Many Religions – One Covenant, p. 70).
St. John Chrysostom: “Yet surely Paul’s object everywhere is to annul this Law….And with much reason; for it was through a fear and a horror of this that the Jews obstinately opposed grace” (Homily on Romans, 6:12); “And so while no one annuls a man’s covenant, the covenant of God after four hundred and thirty years is annulled; for if not that covenant but another instead of it bestows what is promised, then is it set aside, which is most unreasonable” (Homily on Galatians, Ch 3);
St. Augustine: “Instead of the grace of the law which has passed away, we have received the grace of the gospel which is abiding; and instead of the shadows and types of the old dispensation, the truth has come by Jesus Christ. Jeremiah also prophesied thus in God’s name: ‘Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah…’ Observe what the prophet says, not to Gentiles, who had not been partakers in any former covenant, but to the Jewish nation. He who has given them the law by Moses, promises in place of it the New Covenant of the gospel, that they might no longer live in the oldness of the letter, but in the newness of the spirit” (Letters, 74, 4);
Justin Martyr: Now, law placed against law has abrogated that which is before it, and a covenant which comes after in like manner has put an end to the previous one; and an eternal and final law – namely, Christ – has been given to us, and the covenant is trustworthy…Have you not read…by Jeremiah, concerning this same new covenant, He thus speaks: ‘Behold, the days come,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah…’” (Dialogue with Trypho, Ch 11).
You can call it how you see it but from what I see a hear of how Catholics ‘practice’ their faith it’s a far far cry from Jesus as the sole mediator between God and man.
Priests, Popes, and Mary have no powers than the common man. The departed do no see nor hear us. Nor do we need them to when we all have a direct connection to Jesus Chris himself.
You’ve compiled a list of quotes, primarily from non-magisterial sources like Lucius Ferraris’ Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Alphonsus Liguori’s Dignity and Duties of the Priest, and others, to claim the Catholic Church equates the Pope with God, grants priests divine power, and boasts of changing divine laws. These are classic anti-Catholic tropes, misquoted by Adventists to echo White’s slander of the papacy as Antichrist (The Great Controversy, p. 50). Let’s dismantle each accusation:
Your Dishonesty: These quotes, from non-authoritative sources or taken out of context, don’t reflect Catholic doctrine. The Catechism (CCC 880-892) clarifies the Pope’s role as Christ’s vicar, not God. Your misrepresentations are Adventist lies, Phil, not truth.
Phil, your accusations echo Ellen G. White’s anti-Catholic venom, branding the Church as Antichrist (The Great Controversy, p. 50). Seventh-day Adventism is a satanic cult, built on her false prophecies and heretical doctrines. Let’s expose its evils:
| Adventist Error | Details | Biblical Refutation |
|---|---|---|
| False Prophecies | White’s 1856, 1844, 1845 predictions failed (Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 1, p. 131-132; A Word to the Little Flock, p. 14). | Deuteronomy 18:22: False prophets fail. |
| Investigative Judgment | White’s 1844 doctrine denies Christ’s atonement (The Great Controversy, p. 421-422). | Hebrews 9:12: Christ’s work is complete. |
| Sabbath Idolatry | White’s salvific Sabbath lacks New Testament support (The Great Controversy, p. 605-612). | Colossians 2:16-17; Romans 14:5-6. |
| Anti-Catholic Hatred | White calls the Church Babylon (The Great Controversy, p. 50). | Matthew 16:18-19: Christ’s Church endures. |
| Plagiarism | White stole from authors (The White Lie by Walter Rea). | Revelation 22:18-19: Don’t add to Scripture. |
Adventism’s lies make it a demonic cult, not God’s remnant. Your “blasphemy” charge is White’s garbage, not truth.
The Catholic Church, founded by Christ (Matthew 16:18-19), is His bride (Ephesians 5:25-27), not a blasphemous Antichrist. We worship Christ through the Eucharist (John 6:53-56, CCC 1324-1327), fulfilling the Sabbath on Sunday (Acts 20:7, CCC 2174-2176). The Pope and priests serve Christ’s mediation (John 20:22-23, CCC 1441-1442), not usurp it. Your misquoted sources are rhetorical exaggerations, not doctrine. The Church upholds God’s moral law (Matthew 22:37-40, CCC 2055), not White’s legalistic rituals.
Phil, your “blasphemy” accusations are Adventist lies, rooted in Ellen G. White’s satanic distortions. Your cherry-picked quotes misrepresent Catholic teaching, and your Sabbath obsession lacks New Testament support (Colossians 2:16-17). Adventism’s evils—White’s false prophecies, Investigative Judgment heresy, Sabbath idolatry, and anti-Catholic venom—mark it as a demonic cult. Produce one verse naming the papacy as Antichrist or mandating Saturday worship. You can’t, because your theology is White’s trash. Repent and flee to Christ’s Church (Ephesians 2:8-9). Stay in your cult, and you risk Revelation 21:8’s fate.
The Catholic Church teaches, in line with 1 Timothy 2:5, that “there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” This is foundational to our faith.
Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 618): “Christ is the one mediator... He is the only one who reconciles us with the Father.”
Any role of priests, popes, or Mary is subordinate to Christ’s unique mediation, as I’ll explain below.
You mentioned that priests, popes, and Mary have “no powers than the common man.” The Catholic Church agrees they do not have divine powers or mediate salvation like Christ. Their roles are distinct and serve to point us to Jesus.
| Role | Catholic Teaching | Biblical Basis | Historical Evidence |
|---|---|---|---|
| Priests | Priests act in persona Christi to administer sacraments, not as mediators of salvation but as instruments of Christ’s grace. | John 20:22-23: “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven.” | Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 AD): The Eucharist is valid only under the bishop or his delegate. |
| Popes | The pope, as Peter’s successor, guides the Church in unity, not as a mediator but as a servant of Christ’s mission. | Matthew 16:18-19: “You are Peter... I will give you the keys of the kingdom.” | Clement of Rome (c. 96 AD): Intervened to maintain Church unity. |
| Mary | Mary intercedes as the Mother of God, always pointing to Christ, not mediating salvation herself. | John 2:5: “Do whatever he tells you.” | Council of Ephesus (431 AD): Affirmed Mary as Theotokos, emphasizing her role in salvation history. |
CCC 969: Mary’s intercession is “subordinate to Christ’s mediation” and exists to bring us closer to Him.
These roles do not rival Christ but reflect His work through the Church, His Body.
You stated that “the departed do not see nor hear us.” Catholic teaching, rooted in Scripture and tradition, holds that the saints in heaven, united with Christ, are aware of our prayers and can intercede for us, not as mediators but as prayerful members of the Church.
CCC 2683: The saints “share in the living tradition of prayer... by their intercession.”
Their intercession is like asking a friend to pray for you—effective but dependent on Christ’s mediation.
I agree that we have a direct connection to Jesus, as He said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). Catholics believe this wholeheartedly. Asking for the saints’ intercession does not deny this but reflects our unity as the Body of Christ.
CCC 957: Communion with the saints “does not weaken, but strengthens, our worship of God alone.”
Just as you might ask a pastor to pray for you, we ask the saints, who are closer to Christ, to join us in prayer.
I hear your concern that Catholic practices might seem far from Christ’s sole mediation. Some devotions, like the Rosary or venerating saints, can appear to elevate others above Jesus, especially in certain cultural expressions. However, the Church teaches that all devotions lead to Christ.
CCC 971: Devotion to Mary is “intrinsic to Christian worship” because it points to Christ.
The Council of Trent (1563) corrected abuses, clarifying that veneration of saints or images is not worship but a way to honor God. The Mass, the heart of Catholic worship, is entirely focused on Christ’s sacrifice (CCC 1346).
If some practices seem excessive, they reflect human expressions of faith, not the Church’s official teaching, which always upholds Christ as the sole mediator.
Caww, I hope this clarifies that Catholics share your belief in Jesus as the sole mediator, as taught in 1 Timothy 2:5. Priests, popes, and Mary serve in roles that support, not rival, Christ’s mediation. The saints’ intercession, biblically and historically rooted, enhances our direct connection to Jesus within the communion of the Church. If you’ve seen practices that seem to stray from this, they don’t reflect Catholic doctrine, which centers on Christ alone. I’d love to discuss further if you have questions!
Who better to explain it than their own church?
Salvation is obtained from... Mary?
https://www.biblelightinfo.com/mary.htm
As usual Adventism is based on lies.
The SDA was founded by a false prophetess with numerous failed prophecies.
So lying is one of the Satanic SDA cults tenets
——>Cronos: Caww, I hope this clarifies that Catholics share your belief in Jesus as the sole mediator, as taught in 1 Timothy 2:5. Priests, popes, and Mary serve in roles that support, not rival, Christ’s mediation. The saints’ intercession, biblically and historically rooted, enhances our direct connection to Jesus within the communion of the Church. If you’ve seen practices that seem to stray from this, they don’t reflect Catholic doctrine, which centers on Christ alone. I’d love to discuss further if you have questions!
Bawwwwhahahahahahahahaha!!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
A Jesuit accusing an SDA of lying?
Bawwwwhahahahahahahahaha!!! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Henceforth, the Papacy was to have only one mission in the world, namely, to command nations and men everywhere to submit to the Council of Trent. The new slogan now invented, which must go reverberating throughout the earth, was, “THE COUNCIL OF TRENT, THE COUNCIL OF TRENT, THE COUNCIL OF TRENT.”
You give a link to your Adventist website
And as usual it’s filled with lies.
Btw. You haven’t given any proof for the false Adventist teaching of Investigative Jidgement
Phil, your accusations echo Ellen G. White’s anti-Catholic venom, branding the Church as Antichrist (The Great Controversy, p. 50). Seventh-day Adventism is a satanic cult, built on her false prophecies and heretical doctrines. Let’s expose its evils:
| Adventist Error | Details | Biblical Refutation |
|---|---|---|
| False Prophecies | White’s 1856, 1844, 1845 predictions failed (Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 1, p. 131-132; A Word to the Little Flock, p. 14). | Deuteronomy 18:22: False prophets fail. |
| Investigative Judgment | White’s 1844 doctrine denies Christ’s atonement (The Great Controversy, p. 421-422). | Hebrews 9:12: Christ’s work is complete. |
| Sabbath Idolatry | White’s salvific Sabbath lacks New Testament support (The Great Controversy, p. 605-612). | Colossians 2:16-17; Romans 14:5-6. |
| Anti-Catholic Hatred | White calls the Church Babylon (The Great Controversy, p. 50). | Matthew 16:18-19: Christ’s Church endures. |
| Plagiarism | White stole from authors (The White Lie by Walter Rea). | Revelation 22:18-19: Don’t add to Scripture. |
Adventism’s lies make it a demonic cult, not God’s remnant. Your “blasphemy” charge is White’s garbage, not truth.
Your doctrine is unbiblical, Phil, denying Christ’s completed redemption for White’s 1844 fantasy.
Your historical claim is a lie, forged to prop up White’s failed prophecy, not God’s Word.
Your linguistic gymnastics, Phil, are a desperate stretch to justify White’s 1844 lie, not biblical exegesis.
Your logic, Phil, is a house of cards, built on White’s desperation, not divine reason.
Phil, your Investigative Judgment obsession stems from Seventh-day Adventism’s demonic core, built on Ellen G. White’s lies. Let’s expose your cult’s evils:
| Adventist Error | Details | Biblical Refutation |
|---|---|---|
| False Prophecies | White’s 1856, 1844, 1845 failures (Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 1, p. 131-132). | Deuteronomy 18:22 |
| Investigative Judgment | Denies Christ’s atonement (The Great Controversy, p. 421-422). | Hebrews 9:12 |
| Sabbath Idolatry | Salvific Sabbath lacks support (The Great Controversy, p. 605-612). | Colossians 2:16-17 |
| Anti-Catholic Hatred | White’s Babylon claim (The Great Controversy, p. 50). | Matthew 16:18-19 |
| Plagiarism | White stole from authors (The White Lie by Walter Rea). | Revelation 22:18-19 |
Adventism is a satanic cult, chaining you to White’s lies and a works-based gospel.
——>Btw. You haven’t given any proof for the false Adventist teaching of Investigative Judgement
Many times, WHICH YOU WERE PART OF.
Nope, you’ve given links to Adventist websites that are full of inaccuracies
you know why?
because the Adventist belief iof the Investigative Judgement is Biblically, historically, linguistically, and logically FALSE, just like Adventism is false
The Investigative Judgment contradicts Scripture’s clear teaching on Christ’s completed atonement and judgment:
Your doctrine is unbiblical, Phil, denying Christ’s completed redemption for White’s 1844 fantasy.
The Investigative Judgment’s origins expose its fraudulent roots:
Your historical claim is a lie, forged to prop up White’s failed prophecy, not God’s Word.
The linguistic basis for the Investigative Judgment collapses under scrutiny:
Your linguistic gymnastics, Phil, are a desperate stretch to justify White’s 1844 lie, not biblical exegesis.
The Investigative Judgment’s logic is riddled with contradictions and absurdities:
Your logic, Phil, is a house of cards, built on White’s desperation, not divine reason. seventh day Adventism is a Satanic, false religion created by a false prophetess with numerous failed prophecies
——>Nope, you’ve given links to Adventist websites that are full of inaccuracies
Known Jesuit lies.
——>Phil, Prince of Dim Light
I’d rather be called that than “Cronos, son of URANUS” And I can only imagine how very, very dark it is in/on/around Uranus
——Daniel 9:24-27 Link: You imply the 70 weeks (490 years) connect to the 2300 days, but Daniel 9:23 specifies Gabriel’s message as “insight and understanding” for the 70 weeks, not an explanation of Daniel 8. The Aramaic and Hebrew lack any textual bridge, making your 1844 timeline a linguistic fabrication.
THEREFORE, CONSIDER THE WORD AND UNDERSTAND THE VISION:
There are no Jesuit lies that can explain away the fact that Daniel’s 70 week prophecy revelation by Gabriel comes out of the longer 2300 YEAR prophecy time period (distant future). Daniel didn’t understand the 2300 day/YEAR prophecy from Daniel 8. Gabriel shows up in Daniel 9, as Daniel is praying, to EXPLAIN it and help him to understand.
Dan 8:26“The vision of the evenings and mornings that has been given you is true, but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future.” 27I, Daniel, was worn out. I lay exhausted for several days. Then I got up and went about the king’s business. I was appalled by the vision; it was beyond understanding.
Daniel 9:20While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the Lord my God for his holy hill— 21while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22He instructed me and said to me, “Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23As soon as you began to pray, a word went out, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. THEREFORE, CONSIDER THE WORD AND UNDERSTAND THE VISION:
The vision Gabriel is referring to is the 2300 day/year vision. None of your Jesuit linguistic trickery can explain that truth away. Daniel’s 70 weeks is 490 literal years. Since that is the case, the 2300 days MUST BE YEARS AS WELL.
Therefore, Antiochus cannot be the Little Horn.
The Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon, Little Horn, Antichrist power, Son of Perdition, Man of Sin, and the first beast of Revelation 13. Every Protestant Reformer knew it, from the bible, backed by history. Jesuits came up with Preterism and Futurism to deflect these true Reformation accusations.
And you try to convince people that Daniel’s 70 week prophecy (490 literal years) was delivered to Daniel, by Gabriel, IN A SECOND, LINGUISTIC VISION, so your Jesuit 2300 literal day/Antiochus is the Little horn of Daniel HOAX seems plausible.
NO SALE, JESUIT.
Phil, Prince of Dim Light, your Adventist tirade, clinging to Ellen G. White’s demonic distortion of Daniel 8:14’s 2300 days and 9:24’s 70 weeks to prop up your 1844 Investigative Judgment and anti-Catholic conspiracy, is a pathetic house of cards ready to collapse. You accuse me of “Jesuit lies” and a “2300 literal day/Antiochus hoax,” while branding the Catholic Church as the “whore of Babylon” and “Little Horn,” parroting White’s The Great Controversy (p. 50). Your theology is a rotting pile of Adventist garbage, built on false prophecy and historical revisionism. Let me give you a detailed, comprehensive, total demolition of your points—point by point—using Biblical evidence, historical context, linguistic analysis, and logical reasoning, exposing Seventh-day Adventism’s satanic cult and demanding you flee its lies for Christ’s true Church
Your claim that Daniel 9’s 70-week prophecy “comes out of” the 2300-day prophecy and must be years, ruling out Antiochus, is a White-inspired fantasy, not Scripture. Let’s shred it:
Your biblical case is a White-driven delusion, not God’s Word.
Your claim that “every Protestant Reformer knew” the papacy was the Antichrist, deflected by Jesuit Preterism and Futurism, is a historical sham:
Your "history", Phil, is a lie, forged by White to vilify the Church, not reflect truth.
Your linguistic leap from 2300 days to 2300 years unravels under scrutiny:
Your linguistic trickery, Phil, is White’s invention, not biblical exegesis.
Your argument’s logic is a tangled mess of contradictions:
Your logic, Phil, is a White-inspired fantasy, not divine reason.
Your “Jesuit lies” slur and Antichrist claims stem from Seventh-day Adventism’s demonic core, built on White’s lies:
| Adventist Error | Details | Biblical Refutation |
|---|---|---|
| False Prophecies | White’s 1856, 1844, 1845 failures (Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 1, p. 131-132). | Deuteronomy 18:22 |
| Investigative Judgment | Denies Christ’s atonement (The Great Controversy, p. 421-422). | Hebrews 9:12 |
| Sabbath Idolatry | Salvific Sabbath lacks support (The Great Controversy, p. 605-612). | Colossians 2:16-17 |
| Anti-Catholic Hatred | White’s Babylon claim (The Great Controversy, p. 50). | Matthew 16:18-19 |
| Plagiarism | White stole from authors (The White Lie by Walter Rea). | Revelation 22:18-19 |
Adventism is a satanic cult, chaining you to White’s lies and a works-based gospel.
Jan, you were right about Phil.
The website he gave the link to was of Andrews University, a private institution owned and operated by the Seventh-day Adventist Church. The specific URL points to the “Journal of the Adventist Theological Society” (JATS), a peer-reviewed academic journal published by Andrews University, which focuses on theological and biblical studies from an Adventist perspective. The content is authored by scholars affiliated with Adventist institutions, and the journal’s mission is to advance Adventist theology, including doctrines like the Investigative Judgment and Sabbath-keeping.
The specific article linked (article 1321, context JATS) is titled “The Heavenly Sanctuary and the Time of the Investigative Judgment” by Clifford Goldstein, published in 2008. This article defends the Adventist doctrine of the Investigative Judgment, a key belief tied to Daniel 8:14’s 2300-day prophecy and the events of October 22, 1844.
This of course has numerous erros, theological,biblical etc
Goldstein argues that Christ entered the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary on October 22, 1844, to begin the Investigative Judgment, reviewing believers’ lives to determine their salvation (The Heavenly Sanctuary, p. 3-5).
This contradicts Hebrews 9:12, which states, “He entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption,” indicating Christ’s entry at His ascension (c. 33 AD), not 1844. Hebrews 10:10-14 affirms His sacrifice “made perfect forever those who are being made holy,” negating a 1844 review. John 5:24 promises believers “will not be judged,” undermining a post-cross investigation. White’s 1844 date, adopted by Goldstein, stems from the Great Disappointment, not Scripture.
This Adventist doctrine assumes a multi-phase atonement, delaying Christ’s intercession, which defies the New Testament’s immediacy (1 John 2:1-2). This elevates human works over grace, conflicting with Ephesians 2:8-9.
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