What happens to those who die and do not believe?

Catholic Answers ^

[Angelino97]

Southern Baptists like I think also think hell is for deniers and rejectors

Not New Guinea highland or Congo or Amazon basin know nothings

I heard a self-professed "non-denominational Christian" on radio say, "If you ask 'Must one believe in Jesus to be saved?' then you know enough so that the answer in your case is Yes."

[Angelino97]

Please read the article. Catholics do NOT think hell is for denieds

As I read the article, Catholicism does state that Hell is for deniers (which is the same as rejecting).

The article says that Hell is not for the ignorant (who neither reject nor deny Christ, because they're unaware of Christ to begin with).

[Z28.310]

You asked what you thought God’s word might say, so I quoted what God’s Word ACTUALLY says.
His Word stands.
You were incorrect in your understanding of what God’s Word actually says. Those are His words given in His manuscript.
Take this up with the Creator. Just you and Him.
Humble yourself to His Truth.
It’s His words, regardless how you feel about it.
Truth is an immovable object and He is holy, not your feelings.

Now you know the Truth. The truth shall set you free.
He loves you, despite your anger.
He remains righteous.

[daniel1212]

I think you misinterpret that line. Souls in Hell are not in the body, yet not present with the Lord. So why can't the same be said of souls in Purgatory?

Why? You should know that lost souls, being in Hell, cannot be with the Lord, while this is where believers always will be. For wherever Scripture clearly speaks of the next conscious reality for those who die in effectual regenerating justifying faith (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9) - which is imputed for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) and is shown in baptism and following the Lord, (Acts 2:38-47; Jn. 10:27, 28) - then it is with the Lord, at death or His return (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord.” (1Thes. 4:17) though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul, who expressed he would go to be with the Lord at death, yet was not already perfect. (Phil. 3:10f)

RC (not the same as in EO) Purgatory flows from the fundamental error in the false gospel of Catholicism, that of justification and final salvation on the basis of actually becoming good enough to be with God.

Biblical salvation by grace, in which man is in need of salvation for sins he/she has committed, and cannot be saved based upon actual moral worthiness, but is redeemed through effectual regenerating (being not just physically born but born of the Spirit: John 3:5-7) justifying faith - not of works – (Titus 3:5) in the risen Lord Jesus, who saves sinners by His sinless shed blood, and which by faith the believer is accounted righteousness (Romans 4:5; 10:10) on Christ’s account, being “accepted in the Beloved.” (Ephesians 1:6)

For it is this faith that purifies the heart in the washing of regeneration when one effectually believes the gospel, (Acts 10:43; 15:7-9; Titus 3:5) and results in the fruit of obedience/holiness. (Romans 6:22)

Which  fruit evidences that such are believers, and which effectual faith as expressed in obedience by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:14; Heb. 6:9, 10)

God rewards the justified for, (1 Co. 3:8ff: but not that the believer attained his salvific justified acceptance with God due to his own holiness.

• Therefore the redeemed are those who have been spiritually born of the Spirit (Jn. 3:2-7) by effectual, penitent, heart-purifying, regenerating faith in the Divine Son of God sent be the Father to be the Savior of the world, (1 Jn. 4:14) who saves sinners by His sinless shed blood, on His account.

• And which faith is imputed for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) and which is shown in baptism and following the Lord, (Acts 2:38-47; Jn. 10:27, 28) whom they shall go to be with or His return (Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; Heb. 12:22, 23; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17)

• In contrast to those who were never born of the Spirit or who terminally fall away. (Gal. 5:1-4; Heb. 3:12; Heb. 10:25-39) Glory and thanks be to God.

  Contrary to Biblical salvation, the RC process of salvation begins at baptism which act itself (ex opere operato) is imagined as actually making one righteous enough so that the baptized could go to Heaven if he died right then, (CCC 1023) before the sin nature that remains makes it manifest that he is not fit to enter Heaven, and which thus (usually) necessitates Purgatory, so that he may once again become good enough to be with God.

  Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. (CCC 1992)

  Although the sinner is justified by the justice of Christ, inasmuch as the Redeemer has merited for him the grace of justification (causa meritoria), nevertheless he is formally justified and made holy by his own personal justice and holiness (causa formalis).” (Catholic Encyclopedia>Sanctifying Grace; https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm)

  All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)

  "Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected." Purification must be complete..." "This is exactly what takes place in Purgatory." — John Paul II, Audiences, 1999; http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_04081999.html

  Catholic professor Peter Kreeft,

  "...we will go to Purgatory first, and then to Heaven after we are purged of all selfishness and bad habits and character faults." Peter Kreeft, Because God Is Real: Sixteen Questions, One Answer, p. 224

  Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods. (CCC 2027)

  "nothing further is wanting to the justified [baptized and faithful], to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life." (Trent, Chapter XVI; The Sixth Session Decree on justification, 1547)

[daniel1212]

Catholics err believing in purgatory. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. St. Paul never said such a thing. He said for him he would prefer to be with the Lord than be in the body. You need to read your Bible more carefully and not rely on anti-Catholics for your interpretations.

Rather, your attempted rebuttal here evidences that it is you who need to read your Bible more carefully (and check your reasoning) and not rely on anti-Catholics for your interpretations. For contextually, what Paul "preferred" on one hand was that of martyrdom, in which case, to be absent from the body would mean being present with the Lord, and there is no way to spin this to mean absent from the body being present someplace else. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. (Philp 1:21)

Likewise, to abide meant to be present with his flock.

Likewise, the apostle also states:

Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (2 Corinthians 5:5-6)

For wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord,” though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3:7f)

[daniel1212]

It would be nice if things were as crystal clear as you depict, but scripture (and thus theology) make the picture messier. Enoch, Moses, and Elijah were granted life-after-death BEFORE the atoning death of Jesus Christ. Scripture makes that clear. Jesus uses the parable of the “Rich Man and Lazarus” because it is clear to the listeners that there were those ALREADY in Heaven or in Hell (otherwise the parable

Luke 16 is no parable, but regardless, there is no contradiction in believers being forgiven before the atonement under the Law and before the final one of the Lord Christ, because they were granted the putting away of sins in recognition of the perfect atonement which the atonement of Moses itself prefigured.

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. (John 8:56)

And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Hebrews 11:39-40)

[daniel1212]

“Whosoever knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by God through Jesus Christ would refuse to enter her or to remain in her could not be saved” (Lumen Gentium, no. 14). The key to this passage is the word “knowing.” Lumen Gentium speaks of salvation for those who “through no fault of their own do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church.” This is what Catholic theology calls invincible ignorance. (Ignorance here is used in a technical sense meaning lack of knowledge, not as an insult or put-down, and is called invincible to distinguish it from vincible ignorance, the latter being ignorance for which one is at least partly culpable.) Those who knowingly reject Christ or the Church he established can’t be saved.

And what I know - as former raised devout, altar body, lector and CCD teacher who was a weekly and holy day mass-going RC for some years (in the NE) after I finally became born of the Spirit with its basic profound effects - is that the Catholic Church was NOT made necessary by God through Jesus Christ. It is those who argue for it, esp. as being an object of faith, who are least likely to become redeemed. Who are those who have been spiritually born of the Spirit (Jn. 3:2-7) by effectual, penitent, heart-purifying, regenerating faith in the Divine Son of God sent be the Father to be the Savior of the world, (1 Jn. 4:14) who saves sinners by His sinless shed blood, on His account.

And which faith is imputed for righteousness, (Romans 4:5) and which is shown in baptism and following the Lord, (Acts 2:38-47; Jn. 10:27, 28) whom they shall go to be with or His return (Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; Heb. 12:22, 23; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17)

In contrast to those who were never born of the Spirit or who terminally fall away. (

[daniel1212]

Catholic Answers is usually on target.

To deceive.

[daniel1212]

Guess they never heard about the millennium-where Christ and his True disciples teach for a thousand years—then Judgement comes at the Great White Throne Judgement—

Catholicism inexcusably rejects the literal 1,000 year millennium, and the distinction btwn the first and second resurrection,that of "the first resurrection," (Revelation 20:5) “the resurrection of life, ” (Jn. 5:29a) "of the just." (Luke 14:14) in "the day of Christ " (2 Thessalonians 2:1-2) vs. the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:29)

Thus the following does not apply in Catholicism (save for a relative minute remnant of simple pious faith):

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

However, Lucifer certainly believes in it,

that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. (Revelation 20:2-3),

[daniel1212]

So a tribe member somewhere in the amazon who’s never heard of Jesus goes to hell?? ROFL

It is not a laughing matter, and your reaction indicates superficial knowledge. For while no one is condemned for not believing what they never knew, they are judged according to what they knew, and relative to that degree. And as even those which have not the law (which entails all of Scripture) may do by nature things contained in the law, (Romans 2:14)
and as through the Son of God/the Word of God were all things created and provided,(Jn. 1:103) and who, as the true Light lighteth every man that cometh into the world, (John 1:9)
then if one disobeys the Divine light they have, then in essence they are rejecting the Source of that Truth. If one continues on that path, then they will end up in Outer Darkness with its everlasting punishment. In contrast, if one honestly seeks Divine Truth and obeys the degree of Light that he/she has, then such will be provided with more Truth, leading them to The Way, The Truth, and The Life.

Which applied to mankind from the beginning, as those who honestly wanted to obey God, and were honest with themselves and thus abandoned hope of salvation on their own merit, and cast themselves on the mercy of God akin to the publican (Luke 18:13) were essentially looking forward to the coming Messiah/scapegoat/atonement, as was the ignorant criminal on the cross next to the crucified Lord.

This life is a test as to what men seek and will choose. There is far more depth of meaning in conversion and rejection than simply not believing.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. (John 3:18-21)

The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them. (John 12:34-36)

Seeking prepares the heart for effectual and appreciative finding.

I will rise now, and go about the city in the streets, and in the broad ways I will seek him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, but I found him not. The watchmen that go about the city found me: to whom I said, Saw ye him whom my soul loveth? It was but a little that I passed from them, but I found him whom my soul loveth: I held him, and would not let him go, until I had brought him into my mother’s house, and into the chamber of her that conceived me. (Song of Solomon 3:2-4)

But continued rejection can bring judicial blindness. (John 12:39

Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. (John 12:39-48)

[Z28.310]

As a side note, many families are riddled with generational sin. The sins of one generation are taught, learned and passedd on to succeeding generations. I’ve seen it too many times. Seldom do children break free from the cycle of sin they’ve been taught and it’s incredibly sad to hear them complain about the sins of their parents and grandparents, yet they do the exact same things.

This includes my family, unfortunately.
God’s Word is true.

[conserv8]

Sorry.
My reply was not intended to be personal

The scripture I was referring to. about sins of the fathers and sons, is located in Ezekiel

Although, I do not believe any of the religions are founded or upheld by The One

[Recovering Ex-hippie]

In the times of Constantine there was a huge divide in the Christian community about whether the Spirit was one with the father and son and it was decided by a politician, Constantine, at the convention of Nicene.

So there are very different interpretations of Christianity to this day, each group thinking they have the Right way, that’s where the arguments come from.

[TheGeezer]

Why do you limit the power of God to as He wishes? Just curious.

[scott says]

I started out in a Catholic Church but left when I started to study the Bible on my own—as I saw the complete and total disregard for the Word and the just saw teachings of the Traditions of man (not trying to start a fight with anyone, just could not stay in THAT Church).Thank You for your insightful input—as I would not have known that-—without you informing me of it.

[fidelis]

In the times of Constantine there was a huge divide in the Christian community about whether the Spirit was one with the father and son and it was decided by a politician, Constantine, at the convention of Nicene.

This is incorrect. Constantine did indeed convoke the Council of Nicaea, but it was so the bishops could resolve the issues that were roiling the Kingdom because of Arianism, which believed the Christ was not fully Divine. It was the bishops that clarified the Divine Nature of Christ at this Council, not Constantine.

Also, you may be confusing this with a later controversy between the Catholics and Orthodox in the Church where "filoque" (and the Son") was added to the Nicene Creed.

[fidelis]

No, I used unbelief in the Trinity as an example of something which ALL Christians—Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, etc.— would recognize as being heretical. Sorry for not being more clear.

[BipolarBob]

Oh, okay. Sounds right.

[Campion]

When I asked a Roman Catholic Priest about this doctrine and spoke about Jesus visiting Hell while He was between mortality and the resurrection, he said that Christ went to visit Hell just to punish those that were there

I'm sure there are Catholic priests who are completely ignorant of Catholic doctrine, and you appear to have found one. What you write above is not at all Catholic doctrine. Christ went to Hades -- not the hell of the damned, but the "Limbo of the Fathers" -- to liberate and bring to heaven the righteous dead of the Old Testament world.

[daniel1212]

To: scott says

I started out in a Catholic Church but left when I started to study the Bible on my own—as I saw the complete and total disregard for the Word and the just saw teachings of the Traditions of man (not trying to start a fight with anyone, just could not stay in THAT Church).Thank You for your insightful input—as I would not have known that-—without you informing me of it.

Thanks and glory be to God for what helps. Note that the Catholic argument for oral tradition is that the NT church had no Bible and its teaching was oral before it was written down, and thus Catholic oral tradition flows from that. By appeal to which they seek to justify distinctive Catholic teachings that are not manifest in the only wholly God-inspired, substantive, authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels). And they even claim that infallible magisterium is essential to know which writings are of God.

However, the NT church had most of Scripture, as the authoritative body of wholly inspired Scripture - the Hebrew canon - had been established by the time of Christ, as manifest by the frequent appeals to Scripture, including "He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:27)

And which writings provided the prophetic and doctrinal epistemological foundation for the church. and which provided the prophetic, doctrinal epistemological foundation for the church. For God manifestly made writing His most-reliable means of authoritative preservation. (Exodus 17:14; 34:1,27; Deuteronomy 10:4; 17:18; 27:3,8; 31:24; Joshua 1:8; 2 Chronicles 34:15, 18-19, 30-31; Psalm 19:7-11; 119; Isaiah 30:8; Jeremiah 30:2; Matthew 4:5-7; 22:29; Luke 24:44, 45; John 5:46, 47; John 20:31; Acts 17:2, 11; 18:28; Revelation 1:1; 20:12, 15

Moreover, men such as the apostles could speak as wholly inspired of God and also provide new public revelation thereby (in conflation with what had been written), neither of popes and councils claim to do. Thus the written word is the assured infallible word of God.

Moreover, Catholics typically have a false or unreasonable understanding of sola scriptura.