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To: BroJoeK; woodpusher
You didn't address the man's claim that the Lincoln Encyclopedia verifies the source.

I tried to do so, but I could not find any online version that would allow me to see the page upon which the quote appeared.

I thought perhaps you would have better luck.

As for your allegedly similar words from 1837, I don't think the context of those words shows any similarity whatever to that of the quote alleged from 1864 -- 27 years later.

Well I think they are similar, and so too did the man that placed them in proximity together in that link I showed you.

I daresay many people will see them as similar.

Of course here I remember the statement made by Upton Sinclair, (yes, I know, another socialist.)

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it."

In this case, it's when you prefer not to see a similarity, you will have a difficult time seeing it.

81 posted on 08/30/2024 8:17:25 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp; x

Herndon and Weik's Lincoln, 1889, 3 volumes:

Regarding alleged Lincoln November 1864 quote:

"As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned, and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working on the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the republic is destroyed.
I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before even in the midst of war.
God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless."
DiogenesLamp: "You didn't address the man's claim that the Lincoln Encyclopedia verifies the source.
I tried to do so, but I could not find any online version that would allow me to see the page upon which the quote appeared.
I thought perhaps you would have better luck."

What do you mean by "encyclopedia"?

  1. If you mean the 1950 Lincoln Encyclopedia, compiled by Archer H. Shaw, which "authenticates" the quote by citing a purported 1864 letter from Lincoln to a Col. William F. Elkins.

  2. That purported letter Shaw found in Emanuel Hertz's 1931 book, Abraham Lincoln: A New Portrait.
    Where did Hertz in 1931 find the alleged letter?
    We don't know for certain, but the earliest reference I can find to it is the Knights of Labor journal November 19, 1887.

  3. If by "the Lincoln Encyclopedia" you mean Lincoln lawyer William Herndon and coauthor Jesse Weik's 1889 three volume book, I did find the first two volumes online and did search them for the alleged quote -- it's not there, nor is anything similar.

    The hardcover version with all three volumes from Amazon is $35.

DL comparing the alleged 1864 quote to this real quote from Lincoln's 1837 "State Bank Speech":
"These capitalists generally act harmoniously and in concert to fleece the people..."
DiogenesLamp: "Well I think they are similar, and so too did the man that placed them in proximity together in that link I showed you.
I daresay many people will see them as similar."

Shaw's 1950 Lincoln Encyclopedia:

They are very different quotes in both context and language, however, one thing for certain is that Lincoln did believe in what he thought of as the primacy of labor -- meaning labor comes before capital, and capital is the result of labor, not a precondition for labor.

  1. For a great expression of Lincoln's beliefs regarding labor and capital, see his December 31, 1861 State of the Union Address to Congress.
    Historian Merrill Peterson, author of Lincoln in American Memory, wrote of this:
    "It was easy to understand Lincoln's appeal to social radicals, said [socialist William J.] Ghent, for he [Lincoln] held very advanced views of the rights of labor.
    As early as 1847 he
    [Lincoln] had written,
    "To secure to each labourer the whole product of his labour, or as nearly as possible, is a most worthy object of any good government,"
    which was remarkable for a prairie lawyer of that time.
    Speaking in New England in 1860, he praised the right to strike, as then being exercised by the shoemakers of Lynn.
    His clear assertion of the labor theory of value in the 1861 message —
    "Labor is prior to, and . . . superior to capital"
    — and his answers to the addresses of workingmen abroad and at home gave a color of Marxism to his thinking.
    He was, surely, the best friend labor ever had in the White House."

    Hertz's 1931, "Abraham Lincoln: A New Portrait":

  2. I dispute the claim of "Marxism", I think it's ridiculous.

  3. Donald Trump is hoping to challenge the claim of "labor's best friend in the White House". 😉

  4. Here is that last quote, expanded, from Lincoln's 1861 SOTHU address:
    "Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration.
    Capital has its rights, which are as worthy of protection as any other rights.
    Nor is it denied that there is, and probably always will be, a relation between labor and capital producing mutual benefits.
    The error is in assuming that the whole labor of community exists within that relation.
    A few men own capital, and that few avoid labor themselves, and with their capital hire or buy another few to labor for them.
    A large majority belong to neither class—neither work for others nor have others working for them."
Bottom line: there is 0% doubt that Lincoln and Lincoln-Republicans were pro-labor, but that doesn't mean he was overly-concerned about evil "corporations" who were "enthroned" during the Civil War.
In fact, I can find no other place where those words -- "corporations" and "enthroned" -- appear in Lincoln's genuine documents.

Merrill Peterson's "Lincoln in American Memory"

82 posted on 08/31/2024 6:00:43 AM PDT by BroJoeK (future DDG 134 -- we remember)
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To: DiogenesLamp
It existed at least since 1908, so if it's fake, it's a very old fake, and written at a time when many of the people who knew Lincoln were still alive.

It would seem to me that claim that it is from a letter to Elkins ought to be verifiable.

The gold standard is the nine volume Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, edited by Roy P. Basler. It has never been shown to have included a bogus letter attributed to Lincoln. It excluded the supposed letter from Lincoln to Elkins.

It has been repeatedly debunked since the 1880s and is a famous Lincoln fraud.

Asserted quote:

I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed.

It was included by Emanuel Hertz in his book, Lincoln, A New Portrait at pp. 954-55.

Yes, we may all congratulate ourselves that this cruel war is nearing its close. It has cost a vast amount of treasure and blood. The best blood of the flower of American youth has been freely offered upon our country's altar that the nation might live. It has been indeed a trying hour for the republic; but I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country.

As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war. God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless.

That is all of it in the source relied upon by The Lincoln Encyclopedia. The entry includes neither sender, nor addressee, nor date.

83 posted on 09/01/2024 10:40:28 PM PDT by woodpusher
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