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To: SunkenCiv
I have one problem with human and near-human cave discoveries - bones, tools, sculpture, paintings - all of it.

There is literally zero light inside caves.

You cannot - literally - see your hand in front of your face.

How did pre-historic humans see inside caves? Why would they leave artifacts where no one else would ever see them?

Fire is out of the question.

Either the fire burns up all your oxygen, or it chokes you to death with smoke.

I have never seen this issue addressed before in the scientific literature.

Any explanation would be pure speculation.

5 posted on 08/04/2024 4:11:14 PM PDT by zeestephen (Trump "Lost" By 43,000 Votes - Spread Across Three States - GA, WI, AZ)
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To: zeestephen
Either the fire burns up all your oxygen

Or a troop of monkeys seeking shelter in a cave from a storm use up the available air and succumb to carbon monoxide poisoning

6 posted on 08/04/2024 4:17:13 PM PDT by fso301
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To: zeestephen

Depending on depth of the cave, light from the opening can carry far inside the cave.


7 posted on 08/04/2024 4:21:12 PM PDT by Bobbyvotes (I will be voting for Trump/whoever he picks VP in November. If he loses in 2024, country is toast.)
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To: zeestephen
Fire is out of the question.

False assumption.

Most cave explorers and miners used candles (a very small fire) for thousands of years. Before that, torches were used.

Small fires of particular materials produce very little smoke and use very little oxygen. The article explains they found evidence of fires in the areas they were searching.

9 posted on 08/04/2024 4:27:32 PM PDT by marktwain (The Republic is at risk. Resistance to the Democratic Party is Resistance to Tyranny. )
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To: zeestephen

All due respect, but you know not what you’re espousing.

Watch this https://www.netflix.com/tudum/articles/unknown-cave-of-bones-trailer

and read the following

https://www.science.org/content/article/israeli-cave-offers-clues-about-when-humans-mastered-fire

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/ashes-oldest-controlled-fire

https://www.archaeology.org.za/news/2012/April/earliest-evidence-fire-use

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/04/1078358126/building-a-fire-in-a-cave-is-not-easy-early-humans-figured-out-how

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8143000/

and finally:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0250497

and get back to those of us who understand the concept of ‘science’, because the evidence of repetitive activity in caves at innumerous sites around the globe demonstrates the folly of your statements.

That stated, I cannot deny the possibility - frankly, the PROBABILITY - that some early hominids might have feared, respected or otherwise deified caves in some reverence for those who died mysterious deaths due to CO poisoning (obviously unknown until 1716). Still, our ancestors persisted and stayed active at nearly all caves around the world throughout history.


13 posted on 08/04/2024 6:52:23 PM PDT by logi_cal869 (-cynicus the "concern troll" a/o 10/03/2018 /!i!! &@$%&*(@ -)
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To: zeestephen

They did use fire, because they didn’t have time travel to come up and ask your opinion.


18 posted on 08/04/2024 7:46:32 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Putin should skip ahead to where he kills himself in the bunker.)
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To: zeestephen

“There is literally zero light inside caves.”

except that given off by bio-luminescent organisms


“Fire is out of the question. Either the fire burns up all your oxygen, or it chokes you to death with smoke.”


If the air is stagnant - not moving - then fire would burn it all up. However, if the air is stagnant, then people in the cave risk death where pockets of air have been used up by the surrounding rock over time. Which is why smart cavers carry oxygen meters - to avoid what amounts to instant death - air here, then one step more, no air.

So obviously, this cave system has moving air. Else everyone on the expedition would be dead and we would not be reading this report.

Since that is the case, there is no problem burning torches.

Its not a zero sum game; its not addressed in “scientific literature” because it is common sense.


30 posted on 08/05/2024 5:35:34 AM PDT by PIF (They came for me and mine ... now its your turn)
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