Inside Dignitas where terminally ill patients pay $25,000 to end their lives

Daily Mail ^ | By MARTIN ROBINSON, CHIEF REPORTER

[grumpygresh]

There is no way to work for salvation. It’s a gift from God. If it wasn’t a gift or conditional, He would have made that clear in his Word. If you have to work for it or to keep it, it’s not a gift. “Not by works lest any man should boast”.

The fact is that God hates pride and will not share His glory.

Other than belief in Christ as redeemer, what other conditions are necessary for salvation?

If you must produce fruit, how much and what fruit must you have?

Salvation and sanctification are very different. Salvation saves the believer from Hell. Sanctification is about judging the believer’s works for rewards and crowns. There is a crown for evangelism. You can gain it or not gain it.

[daniel1212]

Now I am not religious so I have to ask those who are how would such a thing like this be judged? Just wondering.

Without belief in God(of the Bible) there is only man's finite and rather limited and often perverse reasoning for morals. Thus the decline in belief is concomitant with moral degeneration, perverting every one of the 10 commandments, to the point where gender to self-determined based upon current feelings.

And the innocent are murdered based upon location and degree of functionality.

And in light of the fact that God gave life, only He has the right to take it, unless He has ruled otherwise, that of the just taking of life due to intentionally taking life.

Thus suicide is self-murder (autocide), and except in rare cases, rather than an end to troubles, far greater and enduring trouble has just begun.

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8)

[daniel1212]

Glad you endured. Spiritually

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:25-26)

[Fledermaus]

Once they are gone do they renege on the money?

[daniel1212]

The biggest miracle of modern medicine is its ability to keep anyone technically alive up until the minute the patient runs out of money.

Sarcasm but fitting.

[daniel1212]

“no chance of redemption and forgiveness of this mortal sin”

Some folks are in such pain and bad enough health that they are willing to take the chance you are wrong. Life (and death) is risk.

God told Moses to go up a mountain and die there. (Deuteronomy 32:48-50) And from this, I think that prayerfully refusing life-extending medical care (trusting God to keep you alive) is not the same as murder, nor is it that of a person thinking irrationally. However, such is rare, and purposely committing suicide is murder. And sadly, many do so imagining that will be a relief from pain - to their horror, having died in their sins.

As regards not thinking irrationally. Dear mamma please don't die is one case. She was severely depressed, seeing herself as a failure over things like the kids did not clean their room well, and the doc. gave her pills.

Too depressed to go to church on Easter with her family, or even dress for it, she saw the shiny green pills in the medicine cabinet, and the thought came that she should take them all and thereby do everyone a favor (after all, she blamed herself for all the failures she perceived).

At first she resisted, but soon went back and took them.

Then she put a ham in the over, so that the family would come home and have a nice Easter dinner.

Rational? I think not (not that I always am in all my choices).

Meanwhile, her husband at church, who was not one to experience inner impressions much, felt moved to get home quick, and gathering the kids do so, and found her slumped on the floor in her nightgown. He immediately got her to the hospital where they pumped her stomach.

And while the doctors thought she should have been left in a vegetative state, yet by the grace of God she recovered, and wrote this short (190 paperback pages) book, to help others. About $10 at Amazon. Thank God for his grace.

[metmom]

I am of the saved by grace, kept by grace camp.

While assurance of salvation is certainly never a license to sin, ever, and that deliberate sin will certainly have to be answered for, I do not believe that even if one commits suicide, they forfeit heaven and are condemned to hell. That would be a saved by grace, kept by works theology.

There’s a difference between loss of reward because of behavior and loss of salvation.

Not to mention that it’s not just physical actions that are sin. Jesus raised the bar impossibly high in Matthew 5-7, when He taught that even the thought or desire to sin was the same as doing it.

At that rate, almost all of us would be guilty of the sins listed in Revelation that you state condemns someone.

[metmom]

Psalm 103:10-14 He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far does he remove our transgressions from us.

As a father shows compassion to his children, so the Lord shows compassion to those who fear him. For he knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust.

Some of the most comforting verses in Scripture, IMO.

[Karliner]

I must be honest here because I’ve worked with many who are just awaiting painfully for their last breath. In medicine sometimes we induce coma, or just make them”happy.”

Honestly, I’m all for that and for myself also, I pray for that happy juice if suffering burtally.

Otherwise I’d hold out as long as I can, the best I can. I don’t know if that’s biblical or not.

Even with animals I see no reason prolonging pain to death. So, at what point is it murder/suicide or mercy?

I’m not sure.

[Elsie]

I am not sure whether I could bring myself to judge myself.

...who can know it?

[Elsie]

While he did take out a LOT of the enemy; Samson still committed suicide.

Now - let's talk about him.

[Elsie]

I was gonna post that pix!

[Elsie]

Seems I’ve read that somewhere...

[Elsie]

Downtown; at night

[Elsie]

Test the theory and get back to us.

[Mears]

Okay,I give up……..what do you mean by the whipped cream dispenser
comment ?

.
…….

[Elsie]

enjoy...

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=cartoon+health+care+paperwork+by+then+too+late&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images&iai=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.emrandhipaa.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F11%2FHistory-of-Health-Care-Cartoon.jpg

[daniel1212]

I must be honest here because I’ve worked with many who are just awaiting painfully for their last breath. In medicine sometimes we induce coma, or just make them”happy.” Honestly, I’m all for that and for myself also, I pray for that happy juice if suffering burtally. Otherwise I’d hold out as long as I can, the best I can. I don’t know if that’s biblical or not. Even with animals I see no reason prolonging pain to death. So, at what point is it murder/suicide or mercy? I’m not sure.

Making people comfortable is not the same as intentionally inducing death.

Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish. (Proverbs 31:6)

[Max in Utah]

I listed the items of a Do-It-Yourself euthanasia kit.

In the aftermath of a nuclear war I would choose to avoid a miserable death from starvation and radiation sickness.

Peaceful asphyxiation by nitrous oxide beats a .357 magnum bullet to the temple, don’t you think?

[daniel1212]

I am of the saved by grace, kept by grace camp. While assurance of salvation is certainly never a license to sin, ever, and that deliberate sin will certainly have to be answered for, I do not believe that even if one commits suicide, they forfeit heaven and are condemned to hell. That would be a saved by grace, kept by works theology. There’s a difference between loss of reward because of behavior and loss of salvation. Not to mention that it’s not just physical actions that are sin. Jesus raised the bar impossibly high in Matthew 5-7, when He taught that even the thought or desire to sin was the same as doing it. At that rate, almost all of us would be guilty of the sins listed in Revelation that you state condemns someone.

There is actually zero contradiction btwn salvation by grace thru faith and that of losing what faith obtained by rejection of it. That is not "saved by grace, kept by works theology" for you are not simply saved by grace, as if you woke up one morning as regenerate, nor by a faith which does not effect obedience to its Object, the Lord Jesus, nor is that lost every time we sin.

Instead the redeemed are those who come to God as sinners knowing their desperate need of salvation - not as souls saved by their works or religious heritage, but as destitute of any means or merit whereby they may find salvation - and with a humble and penitent heart (that at least implicitly wants a new life following Christ) believe on the crucified and risen Lord Jesus who alone can save them on His account, by His sinless shed blood and righteousness. (Romans 3:9 - 5:1

And who are thus baptized to follow the Lord Jesus with persevering faith (John 10:27-29; Acts 8:12; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-10) - and who confess sin with effectual repentance when they are convicted by conscience of doing or being the opposite. (Psalms 32:5, 6; 51:3; Hosea 5:15; 1 John 1:9)

For effectual penitent, heart-purifying, regenerating faith, (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9) is that which is imputed for righteousness. (Romans 4:5) All those who came to God with this faith are those whom the Spirit of God thus spiritually baptized into the body of Christ, the church. (1 Cor. 12:13)

And those who die in that obedient faith will go to be forever with Him at death or His return (Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; Heb, 12:22,23; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) In contrast to those who were never born of the Spirit or who terminally fall away. (Gal. 5:1-4; Heb. 3:12; 10:25-39) `

Thus even though we are not aware of many sins we commit, as well as character defects, yet we are still saved by such justifying faith, which effectually asks for forgiveness when they are convicted by conscience of sin. As David immediately did when fingered by Nathan (though he must have put his conscience in neutral concerning this for a while). (2 Samuel 12:1) Thus he could say "I have kept the ways of the Lord, and have not wickedly [râsha‛] departed from my God." (2 Samuel 22:22)

Christians are thus exhorted to "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Corinthians 13:5)

For living contrary to faith is that of denying it (1 Tim. 5:8) refusal to repent when convicted of sin and die in that condition is to be lost, having forfeited what effectual penitent, heart-purifying, regenerating justifying faith obtain, against which Scripture clearly warns Christians, as Christians, doing.

And thus "we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world" (1 Corinthians 11:32) by dying impenitent.

For there is the sin unto death for believers, (1 John 5:16, 17; cf. the "great transgression" - Psalms 19:13) that of willfully impenitently - despite warnings and chastisement - departing from the faith once held, making Christ of no effect, to no profit, drawing back to perdition, thus forfeiting what faith appropriated, which is what believers, as believers, are warned against. (Gal. 5:1-5; Heb. 3:12; 10:25-39) For believers, there is the sin unto death, (1 John 5:16, 17) of willfully impenitently - despite chastisement - departing from the faith once held, making Christ of no effect, to no profit, drawing back to perdition, thus forfeiting what faith appropriated, which is what believers, as believers, are warned against. (Gal. 5:1-5; Heb. 3:12; 10:25-39)

I myself once held to OSAS, however we are called to follow the Lamb, and thus the Truth, wherever He leads, (Rv. 14:4) and that often can mean where we would rather not go, and thus at least in this I was compelled to change my conclusion in response to more illumination. Note that the usual recourse to assigned texts as below unbelievers is simply not tenable, and amounts to wresting the texts, which are written to believers to continue in the faith, and warning of falling "from" grace. departing from the faith, making Christ of no effect, to no profit, drawing back to perdition, etc.

Most of such texts in full (though provided for you before):

And because ye are sons [Paul's audience], God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (Galatians 4:6)... Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again [those who were set free] with the yoke of bondage [going back into what they were set free from]. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if [submission to Judaizers these believers are being warned against] ye be circumcised [signifying justification obtained by keeping all the law], Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become [an effectual change due to their choice] of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace[their former state]. For we [those who continue to believe] through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. (Galatians 5:1-5)

Take heed, brethren, [contextually not a general sense, but as believers] lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God [a departure from their former state s believers]. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin [a change of heart]. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end [[perseverance of the saints]. (Hebrews 3:12-14)

Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering [continued exhortation to persevere]; (for he is faithful that promised And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, [indicating departing from the faith, as follows] as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (Hebrews 10:23-25)

For if [a choice brethren are warned against] we [not just you] sin wilfully [not out of weakness, but with full consent, as a decision not to continue but to depart, signified by giving up being with the believers] after that we have received the knowledge of the truth [a term which refers to believing, as per 1Tim. 2:4; 2Tim. 3:7], there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins [cf. Hebrews 6:6-8; a terminal condition of judgment, with no provision for repentance and forgiveness, having forfeited what saving faith obtained], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27)

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified [a past condition, appropriated by faith, now forfeited by a definite denial of the same] , an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29)

Cast not away therefore your confidence, [the issue being faith, out of which obedience flows] which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise [not that doing earns the promise, but that saving faith is that which finally perseveres, which faith as manifested in works God - who gave faith and the ability and motivation to obey - rewards under grace] For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Now the just shall live by faith [the just live by faith, not merely profess it, with such faith being what appropriates justification]: but if any man draw back [a denial of justifying faith], my soul shall have no pleasure in him [as solemnly, fearfully described above]. But we [who do not draw back, but persevere] are not of them who draw back unto perdition [contextually a terminal condition of judgment, with no provision for repentance and forgiveness due to treating Christ with contempt] but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:35-39)

But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:32)

For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain. (1 Thessalonians 3:4-5)

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory [katechō:  hold fast: cf. 1Ths. 5:21] what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. (1 Corinthians 15:1-2)