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To: x
Then you, or your teachers, must be very, very old. Since the 1970s, it's been the fashion to put down Civil War era Northerners as racist above all else. Those of us who went through that have come to see things in a more balanced way.

I have never heard of it until recently when it has seemingly become the current big thing for the "Woke" people to bitch about.

You say that opponents of slavery expansion were "meddlesome troublemakers" (as well as racists) if they live far away and racists if they live near-by.

You are adding too many words to what I said. I say people that live in an area have a right to decide what sort of society they want, and people who do not live in an area should mind their own business.

Years ago when I was a conservative activist, I went all across my state for political fights with the other side. I drew the line at the border. I felt that the people in adjacent states should right their own ship, and just as I would regard people coming into my state as an outside interloper, so too would I be regarded as such if I meddled in their affairs.

Now this attitude does not extend to my offering people advice for their states over the internet, but I don't think it's right for me to physically go there and mess around in their elections.

Now if I moved there with the intention to remain, that would be different, because then it would be *MY* state.

You attack both groups, though you deny it now. You don't allow for people having moral objections to slavery expansion.

Slavery was *NOT* going to expand. Fake issue. And in the context of expansion, I don't think their objections were "moral" in the meaning of concern for the well being of slaves.

And you paint those who objected on other grounds as worse than those who wanted to bring slaves and slavery into the territories.

They were motivated by hatred, not love. Is there a worse motive?

I never denied that virtually everybody back then was "racist" by modern standards. But nonetheless, many people did object to slavery on moral grounds.

And the evidence demonstrates this group of people to be a teeny tiny minority who were widely regarded as "kooks" at the time. I don't think I could put it better than Charles Dickens did.

"Every reasonable creature may know, if willing, that the North hates the Negro, and until it was convenient to make a pretense that sympathy with him was the cause of the War, it hated the Abolitionists and derided them up hill and down dale."

Looking for that quote I ran across this one which I thought was interesting:

"“I’ve heard you have abolitionists here, we have a few in Illinois and we shot one the other day.” Abraham Lincoln, 9/1848.

Is it true? I don't know, but it's pretty funny.

That contradicts what you've been saying for years.

It may contradict what you thought I said, but not from my perspective it didn't.

You paint Northerners as pathologically anti-Black and ignore the fact that many Northerners even before the Civil War had no problem at all with having a few Black neighbors.

They passed awful anti-black laws. You have to have a majority to do that. Also if you look for quotes from prominent Northern men of the time, you can find plenty that show how racist they were.

45 posted on 07/17/2023 4:45:04 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp ("of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty.")
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To: DiogenesLamp; BroJoeK

Again, you contradict yourself, saying that people have every reason to run their state or territory as they see fit and saying that hate is their motivation if they don’t want to compete with slaves and slaveowners. You don’t see your own contradictions because if you did, you’d have to rethink your beliefs.

“The North” and “the South” were big places. It won’t do to generalize in crude ways. Plenty of free Blacks lived in the free states without problems. Conditions weren’t ideal, but if slavery was the alternative they were acceptable.

I don’t know if that supposed Lincoln quote is true. Do you have a source?

I’d trust Charles Dickens on American affairs about as much as I’d trust Katty Kay.


51 posted on 07/17/2023 6:07:59 PM PDT by x
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