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To: Political Junkie Too
PJT: "I'm not sure if I'm one of "you all,"..."

Sorry about that, unfortunately, FR does not have a CC: feature.

PJT: "Where we may have differed is that I took Madison's words to be absolute, and you offered the additional context of "necessity," meaning only after a "long train of abuses and usurpations.""

I'm not sure what your word "absolute" refers to.
Clearly, Madison gives us two conditions where, we would say, a "right of secession" applies -- "necessity" and "mutual consent", with "necessity" referring to "violations", "abuse", "usurpations" and "intolerable oppression", such as our Founders experienced in the years up to 1776.

PJT: "My facetious (to me) scorecard didn't mean to deny Madison's opinions, but to respond to the point that historically we accept "one man's opinion" when we agree with it and discard it when we don't."

That's why I make the point, there were no Founders who directly contradicted Madison on this -- so, it's not just "one man's opinion".
Any quote you might cite, for example from Thomas Jefferson, can easily fit into one or the other of Madison's two categories.

No Founder ever proposed or supported a unilateral, unapproved declaration of secession at pleasure.

PJT: "I believe Madison's opinion should be given the same weight that history has given Jefferson's "wall of separation between church and state" opinion, and also Paine's contemporaneous "natural born citizen" writings."

Then you are ignoring all of our Founders' opinions, since Madison was not only the Father of the Constitution, relied on by Washington and others to express their views, and he is also expressing directly what the others implied in their own words and actions.

What I don't understand is how Madison's words can be in the least controversial or misunderstood.

256 posted on 06/17/2023 6:09:23 AM PDT by BroJoeK (future DDG 134 -- we remember)
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To: BroJoeK
I'm not sure what your word "absolute" refers to.

It means that I thought Madison was saying that secession was unconstitutional under all circumstances. You provided the context regarding unless "necessary," with "necessary" meaning after "suffering a long train of abuses and usurpations."

Then you are ignoring all of our Founders' opinions...

And I think you're misinterpreting mine.

I'm saying that I think Madison's opinion has been downgraded to just "one man's opinion" as well as Paine's NBC comments. Yet, Jefferson's "wall of separation" opinion has been elevated to constitutional status. I'm saying they should either all be elevated to constitutional status or none of them should.

We shouldn't historically only elevate the opinions we like and disregard those that we don't like, especially when the Founders and Framers expand on their ca. 1776-1789 opinions based on a lifetime of gained wisdom. The Founders and Framers have a special place in the historical narrative that should be listened to with more weight than people who came along 100+ years later because they knew what they were intending to build.

-PJ

258 posted on 06/17/2023 10:02:10 AM PDT by Political Junkie Too ( * LAAP = Left-wing Activist Agitprop Press (formerly known as the MSM))
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